Amazing Atalanta, Beautiful Bologna

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[00:01:29] terms and conditions apply. See website for details. Seria Chronicles is a Bia Chronicles

[00:01:35] production. Hello and welcome to another episode of Seria Chronicles. It's me, Patrick Kendrick,

[00:01:46] joined as ever by Nikki Bandini and Mina Rizuki. Before we get started, a quick reminder of our

[00:01:53] free seven day trial for our Chronicles, Tifosi, Patreon membership where you can get

[00:01:58] access to all full episodes 100% ad free plus bonuses such as videos and behind the scenes

[00:02:05] content. How are we getting on on this Tuesday after another weekend of Seria action where

[00:02:14] we had fewer draws than we've had in previous weeks and we had a few more things that were

[00:02:18] actually decided for once. It was no longer a case of the sort of stasis, was it? Now

[00:02:23] things have actually moved to pace. Yeah, Mina was talking just as we came on. I hope Mina

[00:02:28] will be mad at me saying about end of season fatigue and I can relate to it. The end is

[00:02:31] football seasons. I think all of us who work in football, it's a brilliant job. None of us

[00:02:34] complaining about it. You do get worn down at the end of a football season. It's like

[00:02:40] the players, nothing like the players because we're not running around anywhere. In fact, some

[00:02:43] of us could do with running around a little bit more frankly. But there is that thing

[00:02:49] of just, yeah, you get to the end of a season when there's been a lot of games and a bit

[00:02:53] of tiredness sets in. I quite enjoyed this weekend. I thought it was another sort of

[00:02:57] more interesting one as you say after a couple of weeks with lots of draws. I think

[00:03:00] the fact of Bologna getting their Champions League spot and then seeing

[00:03:09] Orsolini taking a journalist for a drive in his car and driving into town not even

[00:03:13] knowing where he was heading to, not even sure where he was going to go off to celebrate because

[00:03:16] he couldn't get to Piazza Maggiore. Orsolini says that in the car. He said, well, there's

[00:03:19] no chance. It's already gnarled up. So looking for somewhere to go and celebrate.

[00:03:24] It's just a reminder, isn't it? Bologna are a club who have this actually quite rich history.

[00:03:30] It's just before most people who support them now were born because they were successful

[00:03:36] really. Their first year title in 1925 and then building up to the stoppage before the

[00:03:42] Second World War was their heyday. It's been 60 years since they've been in the Champions League.

[00:03:48] Of course, in reality that just means 60 years since they won the league because the Champions

[00:03:52] League hasn't had teams that weren't league winners for all that long in the grand scheme

[00:03:55] of things. That felt like a thing and it was Atalanta's win that got them there.

[00:04:02] I don't know, symmetry is quite the right word but with a potentially neat twist,

[00:04:06] we now have Wednesday night Atalanta have a chance to win their first major trophy in 61 years.

[00:04:12] I don't know, it feels like a fun week to me. There was stuff happening for clubs that perhaps

[00:04:16] haven't had that opportunity to have things happen in a while.

[00:04:19] Is it a changing of the guard, Mina? The fact that Bologna are qualifying for the

[00:04:24] Champions League and Atalanta are in a European final for the first time ever

[00:04:27] and into a third Coppa Italia final under Gasparini?

[00:04:32] No.

[00:04:33] Mina!

[00:04:36] Just pour cold water on that.

[00:04:37] The Grinch who stole Christmas, who stole Champions League Christmas for Bologna.

[00:04:42] No, I think it's really great for Bologna. I don't know what's going to happen next season.

[00:04:46] I do feel like a lot of the time when teams do really well, we say well done to the coach,

[00:04:53] which is right for Lisa because Thiago Mota is amazing. But I do think management has a big

[00:04:57] thing to do with that and I do think having a great sporting director, having a man who's

[00:05:03] experienced at director level, who's done amazing things with Atalanta previously,

[00:05:08] Sartori has come in and built this team as well and helped identify the players.

[00:05:12] Having all of that together as well as sort of making sure that the

[00:05:15] management's tasks are defined is one of the reasons behind Bologna's success.

[00:05:19] And I sort of want to talk about how management is so important, not just who

[00:05:25] the players are, not just who the coach is, but just in general, the project being

[00:05:28] identified and people being in the right places at top level and ownership is important.

[00:05:34] But changing of the guard, let's be honest, next year if they lose Calafiori and they lose

[00:05:39] Xerxi and they lose Thiago Mota, then I'm going to be a little bit annoyed watching them

[00:05:45] in the Champions League if I think it's going to be like what I saw from Lazio this season,

[00:05:48] even though Lazio actually made out of the group stage. I do want our representatives,

[00:05:53] if we're having six places or five places, if we're lucky enough to have another one in

[00:05:57] six, then I want the representation to be good enough and that's where I worry.

[00:06:02] Can we not just enjoy the here and now and just praise Bologna without looking ahead to

[00:06:07] next season and say they might lose so-and-so, they might lose so-and-so? I mean,

[00:06:11] why are we fixating on Bologna's Champions League campaign that they haven't even

[00:06:15] approached it when there's still two matches left?

[00:06:16] Because I'm miserable that Uwe is awful. I hate the end of this season because I'm

[00:06:23] miserable. I'm miserable and I'm trying to spread the misery as much as possible.

[00:06:28] So you guys go and enjoy Bologna. I know that Uwe is going to try to wreck it as

[00:06:32] much as possible by taking their manager, but either way, one of the main reasons why

[00:06:36] I feel like I'm so done with the end of the season has probably a little bit to do with

[00:06:40] the fact that I haven't enjoyed watching my team. And I do think that sometimes it affects

[00:06:44] you as a journalist and I'm trying to move away from being a fan, but it really hurts

[00:06:50] my soul. So I'm like, yeah, yeah, have fun. It won't last.

[00:06:54] You will have your moment to talk about Juventus later on, but Juventus

[00:06:58] are an afterthought in this podcast until we get to the preview of the Coppa Italia

[00:07:02] final, which is coming up on Wednesday. We're recording this on the eve of the

[00:07:06] Coppa Italia final. But I want to talk about Bologna, Nikki. You made a good point

[00:07:10] there. You said that their Champions League qualification was sealed after Atalanta

[00:07:14] beat Roma. But the only reason that was even able to come to pass was because

[00:07:20] Bologna first and foremost went to Naples and won, which OK, we can caveat it by saying

[00:07:25] Napoli have been terrible this season. They've dropped a lot of points. They've lost to a

[00:07:29] number of different teams. But still you're going and winning at the home of the reigning

[00:07:33] champions when the pressure is on for you to get a result. And I thought they were

[00:07:36] absolutely superb. Yeah, I think.

[00:07:40] I think they were very deserving winners. I mean, it's definitely sometimes hard to

[00:07:52] pick apart. It has been often with Napoli this season what is other teams being good and

[00:07:57] what is Napoli just being bad because both goals inside the first 12 minutes were

[00:08:00] point blank errors and that shouldn't happen. You just shouldn't as a team that won

[00:08:05] the league last season be giving away goals as straightforward as that. To Mina's point

[00:08:10] about the sort of the bigger picture and ownership, I think that's an interesting one

[00:08:14] maybe to touch on with Bologna because, of course, this was a club that in 2014,

[00:08:19] I believe, Saputo, Joey Saputo took it over when they were still in Serie B and

[00:08:24] oversaw that last part. It was right about switchover them coming up from Serie B.

[00:08:27] But since then, they've established themselves at first, they were just

[00:08:31] hanging on as bottom half of Serie A. And in the last couple of seasons, it's not been

[00:08:36] a steady sort of constant move upwards, but they had moved up into mid table. They were

[00:08:40] ninth last season now. We don't know yet, but it's going to be top four this season.

[00:08:45] I think that already top five, sorry. I think there is a genuine sense of momentum

[00:08:53] to the project that is positive, that is not just about Thiago Mota. Thiago Mota

[00:08:57] is a huge part of it. He's a brilliant manager, but I think that there is credit to be given

[00:09:04] in this ascent to people beyond him. And I think the ownership have done a good job with

[00:09:08] the club and kept it moving in the right direction. In fact, the decision to appoint

[00:09:12] Mota was a really brave one at the time because it was unpopular with a lot of people

[00:09:17] because of the situation with Zenisa Mihailović, which I think was a very difficult situation

[00:09:24] just for all involved. I had a lot of empathy at the time and I continue to have a lot of

[00:09:27] empathy for everyone involved in the decision to move on from him as a manager while trying

[00:09:32] to support him as a person. When someone's sick, that's incredibly complicated thing to work out.

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[00:14:09] There are some really good players there who we don't know how it's going to go.

[00:14:14] Mina already mentioned Calafiori. We've talked a lot about Xerxe this season. I think that

[00:14:18] one of the weird breaks of this season is that the really unfortunate injury for

[00:14:23] Louis Ferguson right at the end of the season, which is going to cost him the euros,

[00:14:27] probably means he stays in Bologna for another season, which could be good for them

[00:14:31] in a roundabout way. Then you look at players like Orsolini who has been brilliant this season.

[00:14:38] Is that just Tiago Motta magic or is it actually he's a good player? I don't know.

[00:14:43] I was thinking back to when we talked about our Italy squad a week or two ago and who we

[00:14:46] wanted to start and none of us had Orsolini in our starting 11, which is telling in

[00:14:51] itself perhaps. But yes, of course, Motta is the key ingredient. Even Calafiori,

[00:14:58] you're talking about someone who he moved inside and gave this license to play in a much more

[00:15:03] adventurous way as a sort of roaming centre-back, which is not. It's becoming more common I suppose.

[00:15:08] You look at what Simone and Zaghi are doing at Inter, but it's not something we've seen a

[00:15:11] lot of before. He's now the team's leading assist provider on five assists. You've got

[00:15:15] another one at the weekend. The rest of you won't be the same next season.

[00:15:18] To call that an assist is generous, I think. A flick on from a corner. I think we're

[00:15:23] calling that an assist. If all strikers get to count there,

[00:15:27] it's scraping off my knee. Why shouldn't all assist providers get to count?

[00:15:37] I actually think John Lukumi is Bologna's best defender. I don't think he gets any praise at

[00:15:41] all to be honest. He's excellent at building out from the back. I've done them a lot recently

[00:15:45] Bologna. I think you made a good point about the management as well. It's not just Giovanni

[00:15:50] Sartori either. It's Claudio Fenucci who's the CEO. Also Marco Di Valle, who's basically in the

[00:15:58] sort of role of... I think he might now be sporting director because I think technically

[00:16:02] Sartori is technical director, but I'm not sure I need to look at the actual

[00:16:06] organisational chart. It's interesting. I was told by Lorenzo Amoruso, who used to play

[00:16:11] for Fiorentina with whom I was commentating on the Napoli Bologna game the other day,

[00:16:15] that he was at Fiorentina against Club Brugge and Marco Di Valle was there scouting a couple of

[00:16:21] players from the Belgian side and saying, that's what Bologna's success is all about.

[00:16:26] It's the fact that they're not necessarily looking for established players. They're already

[00:16:30] planning on who they can recruit in case they were to lose some of those names that we've

[00:16:34] mentioned, ZXA, Calafiore, Ferguson, Etal. Clearly they are very forward thinking.

[00:16:40] Exactly that. It is forward thinking. It's having a plan in place. It's having a project

[00:16:45] a lot of the times that we fall into this trap where we just think teams are great because of

[00:16:50] their coach. That's normal to see because you've had teams like Mourinho, where it's been a lot

[00:16:54] about the coach rather than about what the ownership has done and these big figures that

[00:16:58] have commanded a presence. But then those don't survive when the coach goes. A lot of

[00:17:03] these projects sometimes fail once the coach goes. I think that what you have, for example,

[00:17:08] even Real Madrid right now, everyone talks about Ancelotti and Ancelotti is obviously

[00:17:11] our favourite coach. He's brilliant, but it's not just about him. It's also what his son is

[00:17:16] doing. It's also what the fitness coach is the best in the world that NASA has got a contract

[00:17:20] with. It's also having José Ángel Sánchez. With Juventus back then, it wasn't just whoever

[00:17:26] Alegri or Conte. It's also having Marotta at the time Pará-Attitude or whatever it is.

[00:17:32] I think that Inter, for example, right now have a great management team. They have money

[00:17:36] problems, but they have a great management and Bologna has a great management. I remember

[00:17:40] at the time when they did sack Mihailović, I was outraged. Also because I thought it was

[00:17:46] delusion that they thought that they could do something really special more than they were

[00:17:50] managing under Mihailović. I genuinely did. I thought what do these guys think they're

[00:17:54] capable of? They're not going to be a top-six team. They are. They qualified for

[00:17:59] the Champions League and it seems like they had all of that set in place. They weren't

[00:18:04] delusional. They knew what they wanted. They were planning for it and they took the steps

[00:18:07] forward. I feel like it is a courageous decision to go for Thiago Monta, so well said by Ninki,

[00:18:13] but it is having a perfect plan in place. It's also making players like Salmachas,

[00:18:18] who was always seen as a sort of auxiliary, great, not a bad option to bring off the bench

[00:18:24] for Milan, kind of mediocre, but he's also been brilliant for Bologna. There are just so

[00:18:29] many of these players that I look at that I would never have on my team and yet they've

[00:18:32] had these great, great season. And so I hope it lasts.

[00:18:37] Froiler, I think is one we don't mention as well. Like a real low-key, not the star of

[00:18:41] the show very often, but he had his So So chapter in England and then comes back to Italy

[00:18:46] reminds us that when he was at Atalanta, he was also a very influential player.

[00:18:50] And Sartori is actually now apparently linked, Bologna are linked with Robin

[00:18:54] Goossens as well. So he's trying to recruit some of these former Atalanta players.

[00:18:59] I'm glad you brought up Davide Ancelotti, isn't it? His son, because he was

[00:19:06] absolutely despised in Naples because things didn't go well for Carlo Ancelotti there.

[00:19:14] There was the mutiny with Alan and Ninsignia et al. And I think in hindsight,

[00:19:19] it probably wasn't a great decision. Certainly what wasn't a good decision,

[00:19:21] and it's a nice sort of contrast, isn't it, between Bologna planning well and then the

[00:19:27] reference you made there to Real Madrid and their sort of support staff and hierarchy,

[00:19:31] because Napoli have none of that since the departure of Cristiano Giuntoli.

[00:19:35] And Aurelio de la Renta is in a peak of hubris that only he is capable of at the end of last

[00:19:41] season, just basically played down the entire role of both Spalletti and Giuntoli and saying

[00:19:45] this team coaches itself, it can run itself. And I think the proof is in the pudding

[00:19:50] and this baba is tasting particularly foul.

[00:20:08] They over egg the rum if it's too drenched in rum, I think it can attract a bit but no, come on.

[00:20:15] I'm not a fan of it either. I'm not a fan, sorry.

[00:20:18] I mean, this is not going to end well. I don't think so. We move on.

[00:20:25] Just to pick up on that very, very quickly, honestly, a sort of

[00:20:28] lighthearted but nevertheless true point. One of the great things about Bologna going back

[00:20:32] to Champions League is it's going to mean some people are going to have some away trips

[00:20:35] because eight group stage games as well this season. So at least four away trips for

[00:20:39] other European clubs go to Bologna. It's a wicked city. It's a really small,

[00:20:43] very walkable city with some really good food. And I'm excited for anyone, if it's an English

[00:20:48] club or someone who's listening to this podcast, sports club, who gets to play against

[00:20:51] one your next season, get that game, you'll have a great time. And the latter is one of

[00:20:55] my favourite little stadiums compared to San Siro or wherever.

[00:20:59] Make sure you have the ragu and not the tortellini and brodo.

[00:21:05] Patrick, is this a football podcast or a food podcast?

[00:21:08] I mean, we can keep you on astronomy for sure to be honest. I mean, I think that is one

[00:21:13] of the main attractions of going to Bologna actually. I think that's going to be very

[00:21:16] exciting. And we're going to have Parma, another gastronomical footballing hotspot back in Serie

[00:21:24] after their promotion as champions joined by Como. So we're going to have all the

[00:21:30] Ladi da, Hoi Ploy, you know, forget the football hipsters. It's going to be the...

[00:21:35] I was actually looking at the hotel prices in Como on the Friday night because I was

[00:21:41] thinking of going to the game. No, are you mad? It's like 700 pounds.

[00:21:44] Ludicrous. Oh, it was ludicrous. I mean, even an Airbnb was way out of my price range.

[00:21:51] Clooney's ruined it as well. I mean, it was already expensive, yeah, but

[00:21:55] I used to like growing up, I thought we were really rich and then my dad's like,

[00:21:59] no, we can't afford to let go of Como. And I'm like, what do you mean? I thought we're

[00:22:01] rich. And it is ludicrously expensive. And ever since it's become like this hotspot where

[00:22:09] everyone goes to, it's become even more. And I'm like, can you imagine just going to a hotel

[00:22:13] now? You're paying clearly minimum 1,500 now for any like nice hotel and the cheaper hotels,

[00:22:19] but the cheaper hotels are... I mean, honestly, one of those really awful hotels that

[00:22:24] you just, you know, you would only want to go in if you're just going to do tourist

[00:22:27] stuff and come back and you're looking at 500. It's unaffordable. It's unaffordable.

[00:22:32] For anyone who hasn't been paying attention, Como are not managed by Cesc Fabregas,

[00:22:37] part of why it's been a big story, but he's the assistant manager. He was made interim

[00:22:41] manager and he didn't have his qualifications. So he's now officially the deputy to Ossian Roberts.

[00:22:46] And that dynamic will be interesting to see actually what happens over this summer,

[00:22:51] whether or not he completes those badges and takes on the official manager's role. But

[00:22:55] Cesc very much has been the front man of that project. And indeed, in that scene I

[00:23:01] was mentioning where the design journalist gets in the car with Orsolini, they were cutting

[00:23:04] back to the studio and they also had Cesc Fabregas in a very natty white suit on the line doing a

[00:23:10] video call. So it was a very sort of funny image. That's why I enjoyed this weekend. It

[00:23:14] was one of those, it felt like very chaotic Italian weekends where we're talking about

[00:23:18] Bologna running around celebrating and then suddenly there's Cesc Fabregas looking like

[00:23:21] he stepped off the set of, I don't know, like a very cool 1980s movie or something and

[00:23:27] all sorts going on. It was fun. You know what? It's so funny because

[00:23:30] it really has been about Fabregas except for BBC Wales who just can't stop talking.

[00:23:35] About their coach Orsion. So it's just been non-stop about that. And then,

[00:23:40] you know, just on the topic of Orsolini, do you guys really rate this guy? Or like,

[00:23:45] you know, you look at his sort of rushed shot against Napoleon. I can't figure out if I like

[00:23:50] Orsolini or not. It's almost like, has he never lived up to the potential that we all

[00:23:54] thought he has? Or? I think he averages a goal every four or five games in Serie A.

[00:24:02] Yeah. I always compare him to Chiesa because Chiesa is hyped as world-class and they're from

[00:24:07] the same age group. And I don't think there's a huge difference in output, to be honest.

[00:24:11] Maybe Chiesa has better potential. No, I honestly think it's... I like Orsolini.

[00:24:18] I don't think he's necessarily beyond a team like Bologna. I think if I were him,

[00:24:22] and I'm not obviously, but I would rather play regularly for a team like Bologna. But

[00:24:26] the irony is he's not even really been playing that much for Bologna. And that's

[00:24:30] what's so quirky about this whole Tiago Motta thing. It is really the system rather than

[00:24:34] the personnel because it's a little bit like Vincenzo Italiano at Fiorentina where there

[00:24:39] was a time when you just felt like he was just changing his team for the sake of it,

[00:24:43] just to sort of keep everyone guessing. But you never really know who's going to play

[00:24:47] for Bologna. I mean, they had Burkama who was back from suspension. He hadn't played

[00:24:50] against Torino and he's been their main defender. And yet he was left on the bench

[00:24:55] because he was still a booking away from suspension and they thought that maybe the

[00:24:59] Juventus game would be pivotal. And it didn't turn out that way. But, Nikki, you mentioned about

[00:25:05] Orsullini in this car not knowing where he was going. Roma don't know where they're going,

[00:25:10] do they? It could be Europa League, it could be the Champions League, it could be

[00:25:16] none of the above possibly, depending on what... Well, no, I think they'll definitely make

[00:25:20] the Europa League, won't they? But Lazio are now breathing down their necks. And

[00:25:25] I think 2-1 is probably the most flattering defeat for Roma this season than any other match

[00:25:29] I've seen. I thought how Atalanta didn't score double figures is anyone's guess.

[00:25:35] Do if I would have gone to double figures, but definitely it was a one-sided game right up

[00:25:39] until the goal and the goal really came out of nothing. It was a penalty, well taken penalty

[00:25:44] by Pelleca of the uni, but nevertheless a penalty that didn't particularly feel like it

[00:25:47] fit with the overall flow of the game. And it wasn't a penalty either. Did you think so?

[00:25:52] I was back and forth on it. I think it was more to you than...

[00:25:57] I've actually, I'm going to post it later on my Twitter, but I've actually found a still of when

[00:26:03] Abraham misses the shot. There's Lukaku, Bove and another Roma player who I can't remember

[00:26:09] who all have their head in their hands as if to say, what have you missed? None of them

[00:26:12] are appealing for a penalty. So I think that's quite telling. If you go from the

[00:26:16] reaction of the team that has supposedly been fouled, then if they're all up in arms and

[00:26:20] you think, okay, but I don't think the shot was impeded from Martin Durand lunging it.

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[00:27:46] Either way, it did make a slightly nerdy finish. They were never really going to score a second

[00:28:06] goal, but they had the ball a bit more and they sort of moved in the areas of the pitch

[00:28:09] where you thought something could happen. I thought Atalanta's first half was spellbinding.

[00:28:15] It was some really, really brilliant football from them. And it is again that thing of how do

[00:28:20] you pick apart what they're doing well and what Roma are doing badly. Roma look like a team who

[00:28:24] are exhausted, who perhaps are deflated from that Europa League defeat. It was a pretty

[00:28:31] heartbreaking way for that Europa League defeat to happen. Not because they deserve to go

[00:28:34] through because I don't think they did over two legs, but they'd got it back, right? They'd

[00:28:38] gone from being out of the tie altogether with a couple of penalties. They'd found a

[00:28:42] way back into that tie and suddenly you started to think, actually, what if they steal this? What

[00:28:45] if they have that muscle memory of a team that's been to two European finals in two years and

[00:28:52] find a way to win a game that they shouldn't? They looked really flat in the first half here

[00:28:58] and Atalanta looked anything but flat. De Quetelara, I mean, I said many times how much

[00:29:05] I enjoy him when he's like this. He's brilliant. Kube Miners hit the woodwork.

[00:29:10] I think De Quetelara had another shot pushed onto the woodwork by Svila. Svila stopped this

[00:29:14] from being a massacre. Atalanta's finishing stop was from being a massacre that Atalanta were.

[00:29:20] Shockingly, when you think how close they've been in the League all season and that they're

[00:29:23] both in the same European competition semi-final, they were a completely different

[00:29:27] class than Roma on Sunday night. It's total football. I mean, Atalanta are just one of

[00:29:33] those teams that, you know, ferocious, angry, always motivated, always show up. I think that's

[00:29:43] the most underrated thing about them is that they're just a team that you never

[00:29:47] rarely find them on an off day. You're always scared of them, always scared of what they'll

[00:29:51] do. And you look at their players and none of them were hugely standout players.

[00:29:56] And yet, you know, like you just knew as soon as they were going after De Quetelara

[00:30:00] that this is the guy who had like a terrible season at Milan would come and shine.

[00:30:04] There was no one who was under any illusion that it wouldn't work out for De Quetelara

[00:30:07] at Atalanta. And I think that tells you everything that you need to know about Atalanta

[00:30:11] and how much people trust in their ability to develop players and to create something

[00:30:15] really special. And Skamaka choosing to go there and finding himself really now in

[00:30:22] the condition of his life, and as someone said, like doing a favor to Italy as well,

[00:30:26] because now we have a striker up front that we can rely on. I think that's hugely important.

[00:30:30] I go back to it in the sense that I am a little bit disappointed this season mostly

[00:30:35] from football teams in the sense that I don't think that any of the forward lines have truly

[00:30:41] shown themselves to be efficient. Too many chances created for too many teams,

[00:30:45] very few taken. And I list Inter, I list Milan, especially in the Champions League.

[00:30:50] I list how many, even Juventus and how woeful they are. Missed a ton of chances

[00:30:55] or hit the woodwork tons of chances. They're just not enough efficiency. And you watch that

[00:30:58] and you think they should have been five or six nil up. But again, I don't know how much

[00:31:04] to take this into consideration because Atalanta were beautiful and deserve it.

[00:31:07] And also at home, they've been phenomenal. 38 points in 17 matches. They have been such

[00:31:12] a force at home. But with Roma, I do think, I mean, Lukaku is just not the greatest

[00:31:19] striker in the world. Sorry, I'm going to have to point this out again. Yeah. And Simon

[00:31:23] had that debate a few years ago and I was sticking up for him in the Ducal. I was never saying he

[00:31:27] was greatest, but I thought he belonged in the top five maybe at the time. And you still think

[00:31:32] that? Time has been kinder to Mina's argument than mine. Yeah. But also I feel sorry for

[00:31:40] him in this particular match because I do think that he needed help against the defense and

[00:31:45] Bal Danse was not the guy, right? So as in, you sort of do need a little bit more of

[00:31:49] DiBalla. You do need to, it was a little bit better when Tammy Abraham came, but then it was,

[00:31:53] it was, then it just started to get a little bit out of hand when it was too many attackers as

[00:31:58] well. But generally speaking, I think Roma look a bit exhausted. This is why I go back to

[00:32:02] great management is because you do need a great fitness coach and Atalanta have one. So it is

[00:32:07] being able to always be strong at the final end of the season and the business end of the

[00:32:12] season when it matters when you are in for the run up to these big finals. It's brilliant

[00:32:17] that Atalanta are in such good condition despite so many absences that they've had throughout the

[00:32:21] season and now Colassi not being unavailable as well. But it is about building that. And I'm

[00:32:28] so interested to know what Roma are going to be like next season because I think they're

[00:32:31] going to be phenomenal. You think Roma are going to be phenomenal next season? I really do.

[00:32:36] I really do. I don't, I don't think I've ever trusted a coach who has only shown me

[00:32:41] so little, but I've never trusted a coach right now as much as I trust in what De Rossi

[00:32:45] can build and the intellect that he has shown already at management level. And this coming from

[00:32:49] somebody who like I'm somebody who thinks the coach matters more than anything else.

[00:32:53] Management and coach matter to me much more than the players will ever matter.

[00:32:57] So when people say, oh, it's the players that no, it's not the players that got you there.

[00:33:00] It's your ownership and it's your manager. And I think they're so lucky to have De Rossi.

[00:33:05] Like if I could choose, I'd have De Rossi as my manager.

[00:33:07] Now is your moment to present the compelling case for De Rossi because I was literally

[00:33:11] just about to ask rather provocatively before you mentioned him, whether Roma are actually

[00:33:16] better off at the moment under De Rossi than they would have been under Mourinho because

[00:33:20] Di Bala missed the Leverkusen game through injury. He hobbled off against Juventus through

[00:33:24] injury. He didn't play against Atalanta because of injury. And it feels to me like Roma

[00:33:29] without Di Bala are limited. And that was the same stick that we were beating Mourinho with.

[00:33:34] It was like, oh, for all of your experience and your credentials and your 26 trophies

[00:33:38] throughout your career, shouldn't you be able to come up with something better than

[00:33:42] Roma without good players can't get results? And yet I thought they were poor in Bergamo.

[00:33:48] And I think it was quite random that they came out losing 2-1 as opposed to any sort of

[00:33:55] grand plan from De Rossi. That's my opinion. So I'm curious what it is you see in De Rossi

[00:34:01] that gives you such hope for next season. Firstly, I think he needs a better management

[00:34:06] around him. So I would like to see what he does from a fitness issue. I think a lot of what Roma

[00:34:10] has been doing recently is down to not really having the fitness levels required. And I think

[00:34:14] playing every three days is just not something that they're capable of doing at this stage

[00:34:17] of the season in the same way that Atalanta have shown themselves capable of. I think

[00:34:21] that's one thing to point out because I haven't seen the very best of certain players,

[00:34:25] but I do think the growth in Pérez is. I think the huge surge in their psychology.

[00:34:32] I mean, like you said, they didn't have Di Bala and yet they scored two goals in Germany.

[00:34:35] And I think that even if it is penalties, I totally get that. But firstly, they're one of

[00:34:40] the only Italian teams right now that are scoring their penalties, which is a lot to say.

[00:34:45] But I do think there is a genuine fight right now. I go back to the way that they

[00:34:52] navigated Milan with El Shirawi with switching lanes. He knows how to adjust pretty well,

[00:34:57] but he does need a fit team. I think that even last week when they had an issue with

[00:35:06] it against Bayer Leverkusen and they had, I forgot his name. Like Frimpong was just going

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[00:35:47] Spina Zola. Spina Zola. I always call him Zappa Costa,

[00:35:50] by the way. I'm having such huge issues between these two. Yeah. And then switching

[00:35:54] lane. And it's just like, Chelsea is not the best, but I'm saying if you just somewhat

[00:35:58] work on bringing different players to create different, to have an alternative set of skills,

[00:36:05] I think that he is, he adjusts very well to teams. I do think that they came back when

[00:36:11] he started to it, bringing in Tammy Abraham, having someone alongside Lukaku to take on the

[00:36:16] defense and then Roma started to build back up. I think he made a mistake towards the end

[00:36:20] because it became too much and then Atlanta had their strength again. But I do think that he

[00:36:25] is somebody who watches the game and adjusts brilliantly. And I'm not entirely sure that

[00:36:29] many coaches are capable of that in the same way as he is, for example,

[00:36:32] Deserby, who everyone thinks is so brilliant, I think is so awful at making adjustments during

[00:36:37] the game. He watches things and he'll see somebody in suffering and he won't make the

[00:36:41] right substitutions to change the game. Whereas I do think that Rossi does that.

[00:36:44] I think that he needs a different level of skills. And I'm not sure that Lukaku is the

[00:36:49] kind of striker that I think works well. And Di Bale is a special talent. You're always

[00:36:53] going to miss Di Bale. You're always going to miss Di Bale if he's not present. It's like saying,

[00:36:57] you know, how do you feel if you don't have Lautaro Martinez? He is the most special player.

[00:37:01] But I don't think that means that they don't create anything without him. Even if it's just

[00:37:05] a set piece or even if it's a winning a penalty or even if it's just trying.

[00:37:08] I think that Rossi's Roma is somebody that I actually fear. I always feel like they're

[00:37:13] confident. I'm confident in them getting a goal. I wasn't like that under Mourinho.

[00:37:17] I would counter that by saying, I feel like he's too much of an idealist and he's not pragmatic

[00:37:23] enough. And I'd like to see a meaner streak in De Rossi. You know, when he was a player,

[00:37:28] there was so much bite about him, so much competitive spirit. I think it's admirable the

[00:37:34] fact he keeps coming out after every game and saying the opposition are brilliant and

[00:37:38] the opposition coach are brilliant. And I understand that he's in a difficult situation

[00:37:43] because he's replaced Mourinho. He's been rejecting comparisons with Mourinho,

[00:37:46] but you know, he's talking up what a great job that Piolli did even though he beat him.

[00:37:50] Then he's saying that Gasperini is a master and so on and so forth.

[00:37:54] If I'm a Roma player, I want my coach to be a bit more bullish, to be honest. I don't

[00:37:57] want him to be constantly waxing lyrical about the opposition. And what I did find

[00:38:02] a little bit, I think there's a naivety about De Rossi in the way that Mourinho

[00:38:06] went all in on the Europa League. They lost on penalties, but he at least

[00:38:11] recognised that they were fatigued. They didn't have the squad to be able to compete on several

[00:38:15] fronts playing every three days into May. De Rossi has not tried to prioritise either

[00:38:20] thing because, you know, he's got one foot in either shoe or whatever the bloody

[00:38:25] idiom is, you know what I mean? He's caught between two stores or whatever it is.

[00:38:32] And I know that Gasperini, who again is pretty good at promoting himself,

[00:38:38] has been talking up the fact that Atalanta haven't prioritised the competition, that they

[00:38:43] haven't been, you know, they're competitive in the league and they're competitive in the

[00:38:46] Coppa Italia final, they're in the Europa League final. But I think Roma would have been better

[00:38:50] served had De Rossi said, this is a bridge too far. And I understand why he did it because

[00:38:56] I think if he had sacrificed the Europa League to go all in to try and qualify for the

[00:39:01] Champions League, then people would have said, what's the point of trying to qualify for the

[00:39:04] Champions League if you're in Europe as it is and you don't try and win that competition

[00:39:08] and equally because Mourinho had such European pedigree. Nikki, bring us a bit of a sort of

[00:39:17] counterbalance between these two extremes. I feel like we've got sort of De Rossi Lava and

[00:39:22] De Rossi Dauta. I want to say two things, first of which is when Patrick said De Rossi

[00:39:30] needs to be a bit meaner. I heard meaner like Mina's name. Jerry Meena. I was thinking he

[00:39:37] needs to be more like Mina. Mina's got great ideas. So yeah, maybe that's so. But actually

[00:39:47] just on the tide, I do think it's really interesting because these teams have been

[00:39:52] playing bonkers schedules and clearly Roma played a lot of games, but they haven't had

[00:39:58] actually what Atalanta have had going to the Coppa Italia final as well. And I just wanted

[00:40:02] to highlight with Atalanta, if you go back to the 14th of March when they play Sporting,

[00:40:09] I'm just picked back because it's two months. Two months back from that game to here,

[00:40:14] they played 14 games in two months after a season when they've already been playing

[00:40:17] two weeks most of the time. They've lost three games in that time, two of which were

[00:40:22] legs of two legged games that they could afford to lose. So they lost against Liverpool,

[00:40:25] they lost against Fiorentina, they still won the tie both times. They drew two more games,

[00:40:29] again one of those draws against Marseille, they could afford to draw it because they

[00:40:32] won at home. So their form has been beyond extraordinary. And to do that with a club that

[00:40:38] is not on the budget of Inter or Milan or one of these clubs where you're supposed to

[00:40:44] have a squad like that is astonishing. And I think we should while being critical of Rama,

[00:40:51] make sure we highlight quite how incredible it is what Atalanta are doing. And it's one of the

[00:40:56] things I wanted to get to with mentioning Bologna as well before. I think one of the things that's

[00:41:00] really fun for me is that you've got two, I call them insurgent clubs in my column this

[00:41:06] week because they're cut to you expect to see in the top of the table who've got their

[00:41:11] playing quite different football actually. They're not identity kit, they're not doing the same

[00:41:15] thing. They've got different things about them that are attractive and I think with Gasperini,

[00:41:20] a lot of it is familiar if you've watched Gasperini for a while, it is trusting players in

[00:41:24] the one-on-one duels. It is encouraging players to get into those situations where they go

[00:41:29] up against their opposite number. But he really has got the most out of that squad and

[00:41:34] you would have to in that fixture list. But yes, when you look at coming off the bench

[00:41:39] in this game, Milan, Cuk, Lukman, Scalavini, you're talking about players who've had a big

[00:41:44] impact this season. You're able to not start every game and I think that is the biggest

[00:41:50] testament to Gasperini but also, as Mina keeps coming to, to the club putting together a squad

[00:41:56] with players that fit what he's trying to do and that he can deploy at different times

[00:42:01] in different games like that. Roma, for sure we know are going to have a difficult summer

[00:42:07] when it comes to exactly what they can afford. If they do miss out on the Champions League,

[00:42:13] which looks a lot more likely after this result, still definitely not nailed on. We've established

[00:42:17] that there can be six Champions League spots for Italy. We're back in a bit of doubt. We

[00:42:22] discovered this before the show. We're no longer entirely clear if Italy will get all six,

[00:42:26] if Atlanta are in the top four and win the Europa League. Certainly if they finish fifth

[00:42:30] and win the Europa League, there will be six Champions League spots. It could make a big

[00:42:34] difference to what options De Rossi has. I imagine Lukaku will not be there next season

[00:42:40] but you will have potentially Tammy Abraham fit again. What other sacrifices have to be made

[00:42:45] if the team is not in the Champions League? We don't know the answers to that yet and I think

[00:42:49] that will determine a lot of De Rossi's opportunities but if you want the example

[00:42:56] as ever of you don't need to be wealthy to put together a squad, look at Atalanta.

[00:43:01] Look at Atalanta, look at Bologna. We're under the misconception that money makes you

[00:43:06] brilliant but I would counter that the best Juventus team was the poorest one of the nine

[00:43:12] seasons that they had. It was 2015 running to the Champions League with what everyone was

[00:43:18] laughing about, what free transfers or cheap transfers. It's into having to do some of

[00:43:23] their best players and yet continuously building a team that's so strong. It is having a strong

[00:43:27] management means that wealth doesn't become the most important thing and so I don't think that

[00:43:31] that's necessarily what's going to define Roma. It's actually overspending and I think there

[00:43:35] was loads of criticism on the fact that they had like third highest wage bill at the time

[00:43:39] and yet were only going all out in the Europa League playing sort of three buses parked against

[00:43:45] you know Bialewkuzin for example last year and ending up like nowhere near the Champions

[00:43:51] League spaces and I think that if you're spending that much money you are expecting that.

[00:43:54] I do actually like the fact that De Rossi has tried in everything. He said

[00:43:59] I'm going to try to, I mean I don't know if it's intelligent and I agree with you Patrick

[00:44:03] about pragmatism. I think that's so important. I'm somebody who hates naïve coaches and ones

[00:44:08] who like you know always want to play attacking football, always want to show their ideal style

[00:44:13] of play but I do want to see what he's able to build in a whole season if he starts from

[00:44:18] scratch because I think that he's smart enough to figure it out. But you know just a different

[00:44:24] topic. You know we were talking about Bologna before and if Thiago Modza goes did you guys

[00:44:27] ever think who you'd like as a replacement for him? Because there are so many

[00:44:32] different coaches now and everyone wants a coach but who is your idea? Like for me

[00:44:37] it would be Genoa's Giro Dino. I just think he's been phenomenal.

[00:44:41] It's a pretty good shout to be honest. Yeah I don't know whether it's,

[00:44:46] yeah obviously it's an upgrade in terms of them playing Champions League football

[00:44:50] and Gennarone just back in Sarriane have stayed up but he has said that he's staying

[00:44:55] though. He's just signed a new contract so I don't see that happening. But then again

[00:45:01] something similar happened with Italiano at Spezia before he moved on to Fiorentina so it

[00:45:06] doesn't mean it can't happen. Italiano feels like the other obvious name. He's someone who's

[00:45:12] done his bit getting Fiorentina to take the second place. It's quite a weird move isn't it?

[00:45:17] Yeah I mean it's still Champions League but it's still going to Champions League yeah.

[00:45:22] True. What do you guys feel about Italiano? Do you feel like he's

[00:45:26] improving or do you still rate him as well as you rated him before?

[00:45:31] I'm a big fan. I think if you look at where Fiorentina were when he took over and where

[00:45:35] they are now, they consistently, you know you could argue they need to be more

[00:45:39] consistent in the league. I think you're never going to be that consistent in the league

[00:45:43] when you're playing so many matches. I think they played 58 last season. They're playing

[00:45:49] a similar amount this time around as well because the Conference League involves

[00:45:53] pre-qualification to begin with and we've already seen that with them this season.

[00:45:57] So I think as long as you're leading teams to finals and he's got three finals in three

[00:46:01] seasons then ideally he needs to win one. You can make a case, they're underdogs against

[00:46:08] Inter, they're underdogs against West Ham. The problem is even if they were favourites

[00:46:16] they're playing in Greece against Olympiakos. I mean how's your luck? So I do worry for

[00:46:20] them a little bit there. I have come back around on Di Telliano. I think there was a

[00:46:26] point this season where I was starting to doubt but I agree actually about the number

[00:46:31] of fixtures that the Europa Conference League has given the team. We just talked about it

[00:46:35] with Atlantani Games. They've played well Fiorentina were in a Coppa Italia semi-final

[00:46:38] as well as going to the final of the Europa Conference League. They played a lot of games.

[00:46:43] Is it his fault that this team still hasn't managed to find a prolific striker? I don't

[00:46:49] think you completely absolve him of it. He's not the one doing the recruitment but it's still a

[00:46:53] coaching issue as well. It's still partly your responsibility to coach to get something

[00:46:57] out of your strikers and to put them in position to be more effective. But I think

[00:47:01] overall I'm still on the side of I think he deserves a bigger opportunity now.

[00:47:09] We have the Coppa Italia final coming up now. It's not Fiorentina in it. It's

[00:47:13] Atalanta because they beat Fiorentina on one side of the draw. Juventus got the better of

[00:47:18] Lazio on the other side of the draw. This is a final we've seen before 2021 in Reggio Emilia,

[00:47:25] Atalanta's third final under Gasperini. They lost to Lazio in 2019. They lost to

[00:47:29] Juventus two years later. Three years on from that, Mina, why should we believe that Atalanta

[00:47:36] can finally win a trophy and they're not just going to freeze on their big night tomorrow?

[00:47:42] Because you have your pants.

[00:47:45] You have won the Coppa Italia 14 times and Allegri's reached the final I think in every

[00:47:50] year bar one hasn't it? Bar one or two I think in this time in charge.

[00:47:58] The team nearly lost to our team already relegated.

[00:48:02] With one of the worst, the second worst away record because Frosinoli continues to shock

[00:48:07] from away from him. But it is a hideous team and yet they were the ones that showed the

[00:48:13] better organization, the better game plan, the more desire, the more motivation. Yes,

[00:48:19] this is Salemi Tana against Juventus at home with players like Vlaović and McKennie who

[00:48:26] was supposed to have this whole new season where he's been playing better. He was probably

[00:48:29] the worst player on the pitch, you know, overpaid players, you know, every, they're just

[00:48:34] awful right now. They are genuinely awful. 15 points in their last 15 games and that's

[00:48:41] largely, I mean the reason why they're even there is because they managed to win against

[00:48:45] Frosinoli but it's just been so pants to watch. I mean like when we're watching in

[00:48:49] the Coppa Italia and at home they got that 2-0 victory over Lazio, they go away Stadio

[00:48:54] Olimpico and they just collapse. And the thing is that there wasn't even anything about

[00:48:57] it that shocks you there. They always manage to throw on and start to really show something

[00:49:02] towards the end when they're desperate to get something which is why Rabiot managed

[00:49:05] it against Salemi Tana. But it's not because of anything other than just forcing it and

[00:49:11] trying as hard as possible to get something. I look at this and I think Atalanta in

[00:49:15] the form that they're in and the confidence that they're showing against a team that

[00:49:19] is so psychologically broken where nobody knows what the future looks like because

[00:49:23] the management is not complete. There's, we just talk about Giuntoli but because

[00:49:27] there's nothing else. What's the rest of the team, management team look like with

[00:49:33] a coach that we don't know is going to stay because in every press conference we have

[00:49:36] to ask if he's staying or not. It's been such a topic of conversation. Fans are divided,

[00:49:42] everyone's divided, management's divided over to keep him or not because Elkan still loves

[00:49:47] the guy. Elkan still feels that oh you know I think he was there for me last season

[00:49:52] when it was all going crazy and you know Anieli and all the board walked out. I

[00:49:56] could rely on him so that he has this weird connection to him. I don't think anyone else

[00:50:01] likes Anieli. It's a team that's in disarray that started the season so well that had

[00:50:06] really high hopes of building something special and the way to collapse like that is

[00:50:12] it's just awful. I cannot imagine that in this match of all matches when they've been

[00:50:16] going at five miles an hour that they're all of a sudden going to show themselves up

[00:50:19] against Atalanta who's desperate to win a trophy. Atalanta who's got a scamp, well

[00:50:24] Scamac is actually not available for this match but Lukman who can score goals like he can.

[00:50:32] I look at this and I think it's fairly impossible right now. I would give them a

[00:50:36] five percent chance of winning over Atalanta. Just to show up and be like yeah we'll win that

[00:50:43] now. We've been rubbish. We'll win this trophy and go back to being rubbish next week Anieli.

[00:50:49] If it is it might stop me trying to kill myself. Yeah. Is there not a case to say that

[00:50:53] now they've qualified for the Champions League which was always their stated goal

[00:50:57] and Anieli was saying that even when they were two points behind Inter

[00:51:01] as they were for the first half of the season. Now that they've qualified for

[00:51:06] the Champions League so they don't have to worry they could even lose their last two

[00:51:09] matches of the season. Is there not an argument to say they'll be liberated and

[00:51:13] they'll just go there and it's a one-off game and they'll know that they've been

[00:51:16] there and done it before and Atalanta haven't? I just don't think it's as open as shut as

[00:51:22] it might first appear. I completely take your point and I completely agree that

[00:51:26] if you look at the form guide then Atalanta are just streets ahead but I feel like there's

[00:51:32] something about the Coppa Italia that always sees Federico Chiesa step up. I remember even

[00:51:36] when Juventus lost the Coppa Italia final two years ago to Inter 4-2 after extra time,

[00:51:42] Vlachovic scored in that final. I've just got a feeling that Juventus have

[00:51:46] these style quality that Atalanta don't possess particularly with Tsikamakas suspended and

[00:51:52] I see it more likely that Juventus win the Coppa Italia and win it for the 15th time than

[00:51:58] Atalanta winning it for the second time. When did Atalanta last beat Juventus? They've

[00:52:02] drawn both games this season. I can't think of a recent win they've had over them. It's

[00:52:07] not a tie which they have a history of getting the better of Juventus. Of course,

[00:52:11] history is what it is. You've got different teams on the pitch today but I think that

[00:52:20] Atalanta are the better team but perhaps it really is just my mind playing tricks because

[00:52:24] of years of expectation. I wasn't being flippant before. I do just expect Juventus to show up,

[00:52:30] turn it on for a game, win it and then go back to being rubbish for the remaining

[00:52:34] games the league season. 50 bucks. Put your money where your mouth is. Come on guys. Let's

[00:52:43] do a bet because I just... Here's the thing, right? You look at certain players like,

[00:52:49] we don't know if Rabiot is going to stay. We don't know if Keza is going to stay.

[00:52:52] We don't know if McKennie is going to stay. Alexandro is quite possibly one of the worst

[00:52:57] players right now on the pitch. We don't know if Bremer is going to be bought over

[00:53:01] by Manchester United. A lot of these players have just given up because they've got nothing

[00:53:04] to prove. They don't know if they're there for the next season. Allegri just seems so angry

[00:53:09] because before when he used to scream, it was funny and everyone would be trying to listen

[00:53:14] to it and trying to please him but now he just screams and nobody really cares. No one

[00:53:18] listens. If anything, it just irritates them that he's constantly screaming on the sidelines.

[00:53:22] It doesn't have the desired effect that he thinks it has or that it used to have.

[00:53:26] We're talking about players who show a lot of potential but I thought they were

[00:53:33] overachieving in the first half of the season and so now it's returning to the mean, right?

[00:53:39] They're just not such great players. It's a terrible midfield and with the pressure thing,

[00:53:44] I get it because Salenitana, weirdly ever since they got relegated, they score a goal

[00:53:47] against Atalanta and I'm thinking, whoa, where did that come from? Then they produce

[00:53:52] this performance against Juventus and sometimes feeling liberated allows you to just indulge in

[00:53:56] playing the game of football that you enjoy. But this game in particular does come with pressure

[00:54:01] because everyone's talking about this potential trophy that they could win to make sure that

[00:54:05] this season isn't the worst season of their lifetime but the problem is that it's not just

[00:54:09] a set AI game where they can afford to lose it. It's a game they have to win and I wonder

[00:54:13] whether they're going to have that. They don't have to win, do they? Because they

[00:54:16] could win on penalties so they don't even necessarily need to win. I was just actually

[00:54:20] thinking that. Do you think that's what they're going to go for?

[00:54:21] No, I think they could. The final they lost to Inter, that went to extra time.

[00:54:26] The final they lost to Napoli, they lost on penalties in the lockdown season. That game

[00:54:29] went straight to penalties. It was level after 90 minutes. The one they won against Atalanta,

[00:54:34] that was played in Reggio Emilia, Chiesa and Kulosevsky scored. I've just got a feeling that

[00:54:40] Juventus will be very hard to beat and I think Juventus, if there's one thing

[00:54:43] they know how to do, it's defend. Actually, I was talking to a colleague yesterday who works

[00:54:50] for Abu Dhabi TV and he said to me he can see one of two scenarios. Either Juventus win 1-0

[00:54:56] or Atalanta win 5-0. I don't think it's as black and white as that if you'll excuse the

[00:55:01] pun but I can see that if Atalanta were to score early then they might be able to do

[00:55:07] what they probably should have done to Roma on Sunday. They scored two in three minutes,

[00:55:11] they would tune it up by 20 minutes. I don't necessarily want to say this on record but I'm

[00:55:18] about to say it anyway. I think deep down there's quite a large portion of Italian football

[00:55:23] followers who would quite like to see Juventus humiliated in a final. Is that me being unfair?

[00:55:27] Sorry, Nina.

[00:55:28] No, I think you're right. Yeah, that's definitely true. I used to enjoy that. That

[00:55:33] was the best part about being a Juventus fan is how much people hate you. It's funny.

[00:55:37] I totally agree with that. I think most people would love to see Juventus really hit hard.

[00:55:42] It's been a source of entertainment.

[00:55:45] I just think that as a journalist who's got to write something on this game and then also has

[00:55:50] an early morning train journey the next day, I'll be shocked if it doesn't go to extra time

[00:55:54] because that is just what happens when you've got no sleep planned.

[00:55:58] I think Scamaca's absence is a huge absence.

[00:56:02] It is. It's a big difference.

[00:56:03] I do think Juventus could take care of somebody like Di Cattelari.

[00:56:09] It's about trying to push through and really just continue to overwhelm.

[00:56:13] Gatti's always got a mistake in him.

[00:56:17] He's got a goal in him as well though.

[00:56:19] He's got a goal in him too. You wonder what lavish you're going to get,

[00:56:23] whether Keys is... I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. But all I can tell you is

[00:56:27] that they're the reason why I hate football in general at the moment.

[00:56:29] We don't know which way the Coppa Italia final is going to go. We don't know who's

[00:56:33] going to get relegated either, short of Salernitana who are already down.

[00:56:39] Sassuolo look like they're really struggling now having led at Genoa.

[00:56:42] They ended up losing by two goals to one. But Udinese's win last night means they're

[00:56:47] now clear of the relegation zone. So I'm looking at the table here. Sassuolo

[00:56:52] 29 points in 19th position. They are three points behind Frosinone with two matches

[00:56:57] remaining. Frosinone 17th with 32 points. Empoli have 32 points. Calioli have 33,

[00:57:04] the same total as Udinese. And Verona aren't safe either despite leading against Torino.

[00:57:09] Had they won that game, they would have been clear. Lecce were already confirmed as being

[00:57:13] safe when Calioli lost 5-1 at Milan on Saturday night. So the curious thing is we've

[00:57:19] still got plenty of six pointers coming up. There's still a game between Calioli and

[00:57:23] Sassuolo. And interestingly, Udinese's last two matches are against both Frosinone and Empoli,

[00:57:28] who are the two teams either side of the relegation zone. I felt for the last two

[00:57:33] weeks that we're going to have a situation like we did last season where two teams finish

[00:57:37] level on points in 17th and 18th and we have a play-out. So a one-legged

[00:57:44] relegation playoff and a neutral venue. And last season it was Spezia and Verona,

[00:57:49] the latter who won. How does this play out? Ask Sassuolo down first of all, Mina.

[00:57:56] MINA It's so weird that Inter have only ever lost to a team that's going to be relegated.

[00:58:03] It's just I find it so bizarre, right? And Sassuolo also got that win against Juventus.

[00:58:11] Again, this was a team that was very well run that always picked their coaches well. I

[00:58:15] feel bad honestly and I do think the absence of Berardi has had such a huge effect on them

[00:58:19] in general. But yes, I don't see them coming back from this. They look so deflated and

[00:58:24] psychologically done. So I do think they're going down unfortunately.

[00:58:29] RAOUL So Sassuolo's next game is against Cagliari. So you feel that is must win. In

[00:58:33] fact, there's a couple of very interesting games coming up in the penultimate round.

[00:58:38] Udinese and Empoli is another one and Saleni Sana hosts Verona. So you get the sense that

[00:58:45] Verona should be safe come the final weekend of the season. Udinese know if they beat Empoli,

[00:58:50] they are safe. But it seems like we get this situation every time, doesn't it? Because one

[00:58:57] team dominates like Lappoli last season into this time around. So as a result, the 40

[00:59:02] point mark gets chipped away to sort of mid 30s. MINA I thought this was actually quite

[00:59:07] an interesting weekend for some of those teams because we were talking after the Inter

[00:59:12] Sassuolo game about motivations and teams not always applying their best at the end of the

[00:59:17] season. Well, Genoa who haven't got obvious things to play for beat Sassuolo very deservedly.

[00:59:24] Torino who don't have obvious motivations beat Verona. So you did have these mid table teams

[00:59:28] that are often criticized and accused of not putting enough effort in getting those results.

[00:59:34] I think in Sassuolo's case, look, the Inter game was a dreadful game of football,

[00:59:39] and they managed to score goals in it, but they didn't really present a compelling case

[00:59:42] of a team moving in the right direction. Having watched them against Genoa this weekend,

[00:59:47] I'd be very surprised if they get out, especially given that they are three points

[00:59:50] away right now from those teams above them. So I think Sassuolo are going down at this point

[00:59:56] in my book, which only leaves one spot for the other teams. Empoli I thought actually played

[01:00:01] really well against Lazio. They were the better team through most of the first half

[01:00:06] and then conceded right before half time from a set piece, I think, and ended up losing 2-0. But

[01:00:12] given that they've been playing very well, that was always going to be a tough one. I think

[01:00:15] they showed signs of life. Actually, Empoli have been one of the best. I would feel bad.

[01:00:19] But they don't score. They don't score. They defend really well, but they don't score.

[01:00:25] I think they still need to win. They're quite organized. I always feel sorry for

[01:00:29] them when they concede because you just think that they're going to just keep trying holding.

[01:00:32] Yeah, you're right. I don't know. But if I could choose, I actually don't know who I would choose

[01:00:39] to be honest with you. I think Frosinone are going down. Do you think so? Yes. Because

[01:00:43] we do know there are also two draws and a win now under Cannavaro. Signs of good change.

[01:00:48] Even the game they lost wasn't really fair, was it? 20 minutes and there's a 94th minute

[01:00:52] winner in that crazy game against Roma. They've drawn against Bologna and Napoli.

[01:00:59] They're doing very well. Frosinone's defense almost seems like they should be condemned.

[01:01:04] Frosinone has stitched me right up. I thought Inter were going to have another game like

[01:01:07] they did against Sassuolo and then it went 1-5-0. I was absolutely savage because I

[01:01:12] naively tweeted it. More for me, yeah, I can just see Frosinone because I think they've

[01:01:19] barely won a game in 2024 apart from when they beat Salernitana which is not really relevant.

[01:01:25] It's just sort of peak Di Francesco, isn't it? It's just gung ho, gung ho. I'm not going to

[01:01:32] adapt. So naive. That's naive. Di Francesco is so naive and Calzano by the way always

[01:01:38] throws to him as one of the best coaches in the world. Okay. I'm like all right then.

[01:01:45] Yeah, unless Slovakia have a very long run in Euro 2024, I don't think we'll be hearing

[01:01:50] much from Ciccio Calzano for a while now. Oh no, I feel bad. Yeah, I feel bad. But there we have

[01:01:57] it. So it's still very much to play for. I feel like this time next week we'll have a

[01:02:00] much clearer idea of who will be going up or who will be staying up and who will be going

[01:02:06] down. We mentioned that Palmer and Como are already on their way to Serie A. We'll have the

[01:02:11] Serie B playoffs to come. And I know Mina wanted to touch upon the third tier playoffs,

[01:02:17] didn't you Mina? Oh, yeah, I wanted to. It's just something that I don't know why this is

[01:02:29] funny. Right. It's just because you know that I've just reached the level where I just feel

[01:02:34] like I want to top myself at this point of the season. But basically we know that there's

[01:02:38] next gen and Juventus are in the playoffs. They'll play Casertano, who is actually in the

[01:02:49] form of their life, to try to go up to Serie B. And there was this whole conversation about

[01:02:53] whether or not they can go to Serie B, which is fine because it's still not in the same

[01:02:56] league as Juventus A team. Next gen under 23 and their striker is 35, 34 years old,

[01:03:05] Simone Guerra. I just feel like it's so on brand that their youth team or whatever,

[01:03:12] their young team has a pensioner up front. I just think it's so on brand that this is the

[01:03:18] team that's supposed to be nurturing youth so that we can integrate them into the first team

[01:03:22] has the oldest player in the Juventus squad. I just think it's so on brand for Juventus to

[01:03:29] have a striker in the under 23 team being that old. Maybe if he played for Juventus alongside

[01:03:35] Vlaavid, he'd actually score goals. I don't know.

[01:03:40] We have got some shout outs this week. We've got Otto Sevaldson, Lille Böhr, Nick Rigg and

[01:03:47] Aga Rees. I apologise for any, if not all of those names that I've butchered. But thank

[01:03:53] you very much for the support. We really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you everyone for

[01:03:57] supporting us. Just a reminder, as Patrick said at the top of the show, if you would like to give

[01:04:01] our Patreon Tifosi membership a spin, we do have free trials available right now on the website,

[01:04:07] seriachronicles.com. But you can find us on all the usual socials, Patrick Kendrick,

[01:04:14] Mina Mazzuchi and Nikki Bandini, as well as the Serie A Chronicles official account.

[01:04:19] We will be back with some sort of update midweek after the Coppa Italia final for certain.

[01:04:25] But until then, enjoy your weeks everybody and we'll speak to you soon.