The Agony & Ecstasy of Serie A Relegation & Survival

[00:00:00] We took it all, we brought them to our land. An endless night, ember hot and icy cold.

[00:00:10] The rage of the earth, we made this curse. Carved it in the blood on our backs.

[00:00:18] We did not see. We could not but she did. And in the end...

[00:00:23] What will I become?

[00:00:25] Senua Saga, Hellblade 2

[00:00:27] Play it now with Game Pass

[00:00:29] This episode is supported by FX's Clipped

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[00:01:25] Right now! Are you feeling lucky?

[00:01:31] Serie A Chronicles is a Serie A Chronicles production

[00:01:39] Marizzo Stierpe now, the Frosinone president knows it's his side who now have no margin for error

[00:01:46] were emply to score against Rola again and Frosinone would drop into the relegation zone

[00:01:55] Now Nyonk

[00:01:56] And Nyonk has scored what is surely the winner

[00:02:00] Survival is in reach now

[00:02:04] And by Nyonk

[00:02:07] With possibly the most important goal of his career

[00:02:14] Emply are back above Frosinone because they lead against Roma

[00:02:18] and there's barely any time remaining at the Castellani

[00:02:21] How on earth has this backfired for Frosinone?

[00:02:24] They were the highest place to the three teams beginning this evening

[00:02:29] Udinese are saved, Frosinone beaten

[00:02:33] and if and when the full-time whistle goes at the Castellani

[00:02:36] and it remains emply to Roma 1

[00:02:39] then it's Frosinone who will be relegated

[00:02:43] Fabio Cannavaro has saved Udinese

[00:02:45] Keenan Davis with the only goal

[00:02:49] It's a great escape for Udinese

[00:02:51] but you have to feel for Frosinone

[00:02:53] They were two and a half minutes away from staying up

[00:02:58] And it's all over

[00:03:00] Emply are safe

[00:03:02] Emply survive for another season in Serie A

[00:03:07] The most dramatic of finishes

[00:03:09] with M.Bajnjong scoring late in stoppage time

[00:03:13] the Azzurri have done it

[00:03:16] They think it's all over

[00:03:19] and actually it still technically isn't

[00:03:21] because Atalanta still need to play Fiorentina

[00:03:24] but the season is as good as over in Serie A

[00:03:27] All the important stuff is tied up

[00:03:29] 18 teams are all finished

[00:03:31] We just have that one delayed game left to go

[00:03:33] All the drama of a relegation of fight

[00:03:36] that went down to the wire was resolved this weekend

[00:03:39] and I can't wait to talk through it

[00:03:41] with Patrick Kendrick and Mina Razuki

[00:03:44] Before we do that

[00:03:46] Guys, the season is over

[00:03:48] What is your overriding emotion

[00:03:50] right now, the day after the end of the Serie A season

[00:03:52] Mina?

[00:03:54] Thank you

[00:03:58] It was fun in the beginning

[00:04:01] It sort of stopped being fun

[00:04:03] when we started to predict what was going to happen

[00:04:05] towards the end

[00:04:07] and then it was very emotional

[00:04:09] to be honest with you

[00:04:11] I spent most of my weekend crying

[00:04:13] I don't know why

[00:04:15] but it was

[00:04:17] seeing Alexander crying

[00:04:19] and the fact that he had limited his comments

[00:04:21] on Instagram for the last year

[00:04:23] because of the amount of abuse

[00:04:25] he got from Juventus fan

[00:04:27] and then you realize how much

[00:04:29] it actually meant to him

[00:04:31] seeing Stefano Piolli and Raphael Liao

[00:04:33] get so emotional over him leaving as well

[00:04:35] Tony Cruz, but you guys don't care about that

[00:04:37] Just different things

[00:04:39] Stephen Zhang's letter

[00:04:41] to the fans was really sad

[00:04:43] to read as well because

[00:04:45] you really felt like he loved the club

[00:04:47] I don't know, it was a little bit

[00:04:49] like a nostalgia

[00:04:51] just a lot of great people

[00:04:53] leaving, even

[00:04:55] Drew

[00:04:57] and also

[00:04:59] Di Francesco, I felt really

[00:05:01] sorry for Frosinone

[00:05:03] to be relegated the way that he was embraced

[00:05:05] by Cannavaro, Fabio

[00:05:07] and Paolo

[00:05:10] I guess on the other hand

[00:05:12] it was really great for David Inicolo

[00:05:14] so, highs and lows

[00:05:16] I would like more

[00:05:18] excitement next season

[00:05:20] but I don't know

[00:05:22] at least one thing I can guarantee is

[00:05:24] we're back to being the most competitive league in Europe

[00:05:28] Fatigue tinged

[00:05:30] with relief

[00:05:32] my two overriding emotions

[00:05:34] on this Monday

[00:05:36] morning

[00:05:38] the long season is over

[00:05:40] fatigue because it was quite draining

[00:05:42] but yeah, I think it was very exciting

[00:05:44] and I actually quite like the fact that everything

[00:05:46] had been resolved

[00:05:48] in terms of the title race

[00:05:50] in the European places so that we could just focus

[00:05:52] and give the three teams

[00:05:54] battling to avoid relegation

[00:05:56] give them their day in the sun

[00:05:58] and I thought that was a lot of fun

[00:06:00] I was a bundle of conflicted emotions

[00:06:02] this weekend

[00:06:04] I definitely was so happy

[00:06:06] for David Inicolo when Empoli scored

[00:06:08] it's hard not to be swept up in that story

[00:06:10] five different clubs now

[00:06:12] he's managed to finish 17th in Serie A with

[00:06:14] it's an extraordinary thing to do

[00:06:16] at the same time you're

[00:06:18] jumping from there to

[00:06:20] Flozina and Osevedio Francesco

[00:06:22] and the project

[00:06:24] he's had and I thought they were really good

[00:06:26] yesterday to lose to Udinese

[00:06:28] when they outplayed them and then have that

[00:06:30] sucker punch at the end of the game where it felt like

[00:06:32] they were going to be staying up anyway

[00:06:34] and then you hear the news from Empoli and you're going down

[00:06:36] you could really see how it affected him

[00:06:38] we will get to those games

[00:06:40] before we start properly

[00:06:42] just want to let all of our listeners

[00:06:44] know this is our last main show of the season

[00:06:46] there will

[00:06:48] probably be a voice note after the Europa Conference

[00:06:50] game

[00:06:52] Europa Conference League final with

[00:06:54] Fiorentina and Limpiakos on Wednesday

[00:06:56] but this may be our last main one of

[00:06:58] the regular season

[00:07:00] we're still working out exactly what we do around the Euros

[00:07:02] what we do or don't do

[00:07:04] but just a note to the Chronicles to Fozzi patrons

[00:07:06] that all fees will be paused

[00:07:08] during the off season so

[00:07:10] we'll definitely not be charging you while

[00:07:12] we're not putting out content we would not do that

[00:07:14] just wanted to let you know all that

[00:07:16] let's go to

[00:07:18] the

[00:07:20] classic end of season

[00:07:22] multi-screen drama

[00:07:24] Empoli against Roma, let's start there with

[00:07:26] the team that stayed up

[00:07:28] Davide Nicola

[00:07:30] reaches into his

[00:07:32] bag of magic tricks which

[00:07:34] basically every time this season

[00:07:36] during the last part of the season the

[00:07:38] bag of magic tricks is

[00:07:40] Mbaing Yang who has I think only started

[00:07:42] five games since joining in January

[00:07:44] but all six of his goals which

[00:07:46] by the way is enough to make him Empoli's top scorer

[00:07:48] six goals, all six of them

[00:07:50] have come off the bench including

[00:07:52] this one in the 92nd

[00:07:54] minute to get them across the line

[00:07:56] against Roma

[00:07:58] Did we see it coming Patrick or was this

[00:08:00] a surprise when it happened?

[00:08:02] No I thought it was very

[00:08:04] predictable dare I say

[00:08:06] I said this before it backfired

[00:08:08] a bit when Fozzi Nani lost

[00:08:10] 5-0 at home to Inter in their

[00:08:12] penultimate home match but

[00:08:14] I just feel when a team has huge motivation

[00:08:16] as Empoli did and another

[00:08:18] team is playing for nothing and

[00:08:20] Roma knew they were sick whatever happened

[00:08:22] they couldn't be caught by Lazio, they couldn't

[00:08:24] catch up to any of the teams ahead of them

[00:08:26] They also saw Atalanta play in the earlier

[00:08:28] game and knew that Atalanta's 3-0

[00:08:30] win over Torino meant that any

[00:08:32] very slight glimmer of hope

[00:08:34] they had of qualifying for the Champions League with Atalanta

[00:08:36] finishing wherever it was

[00:08:38] they needed to finish fifth, I'm so confused

[00:08:40] at this stage. That had all

[00:08:42] been dashed so

[00:08:44] I think it would take

[00:08:46] I'm not going to

[00:08:49] question Roma's professionalism I just think

[00:08:51] it's the end of a very long season, they've been

[00:08:53] in the Europa League they made it as far as

[00:08:55] the semi-finals of that competition

[00:08:57] they've had a very long taxing

[00:08:59] Serie A season, they've had two coaches

[00:09:01] two very different coaches Mourinho and De Rossi

[00:09:03] and you're up against a side that's playing at

[00:09:05] home and that needs to win feasibly to

[00:09:07] stay up and that's exactly what they did

[00:09:09] and especially

[00:09:11] given what was going on elsewhere

[00:09:13] there was that scenario whereby

[00:09:15] there could have been a two legged relegation playoff

[00:09:17] had Frosinone won

[00:09:19] and Empoli drew but once the news

[00:09:21] filtered through from the steeper that actually

[00:09:23] the team that was winning was Udinese

[00:09:25] not Frosinone, Empoli knew that

[00:09:27] them drawing one all against

[00:09:29] Roma was not good enough and then we saw that concerted

[00:09:31] effort for them to, well I say we saw, I was

[00:09:33] commentating on the other game so I'm

[00:09:35] told that there was a concerted effort there

[00:09:37] and not Roma's

[00:09:39] finest hour on the defending but

[00:09:41] and by Neonq he's done it again

[00:09:43] He really has been extraordinary

[00:09:45] I always just come back to Neonq

[00:09:47] when he first showed up at

[00:09:49] Milan and he was lightning in a bottle

[00:09:51] he was so fast and he was so exciting

[00:09:53] I always think about that Champions League

[00:09:55] tie, Milan Barcelona where Milan

[00:09:57] were leading 2-0 from the first leg

[00:09:59] and Neang had a chance to

[00:10:01] make it, I think

[00:10:03] it was 3-0 aggregate, it wasn't 3-1 but it

[00:10:05] might have been 3-1 when he had his chance to score

[00:10:07] and he hits the post and then instead Milan get walloped

[00:10:09] 4-0 and go out and I just think of that as one of those

[00:10:11] sliding door moments for

[00:10:13] that sigism but perhaps also in some

[00:10:15] sense for his whole career because he went on to

[00:10:17] have this slightly odd journeyman

[00:10:19] situation, he's had some success along the way

[00:10:21] he's been in France, he's been in Turkey, he's been in Saudi

[00:10:23] some successful seasons for sure

[00:10:25] but I do feel like back in Italy

[00:10:27] at least he's sort of

[00:10:29] been this forgotten figure between the chapter

[00:10:31] and Milan and then you just get these odd

[00:10:33] postcards from afar almost like

[00:10:35] him playing rock paper scissors with

[00:10:37] Mario Balotelli to see who's going to take a penalty

[00:10:39] in a game in Turkey and

[00:10:41] you think whatever happened to that guy so

[00:10:43] it's fun having him back and

[00:10:45] doing things. Mina

[00:10:47] I do feel like we need to do a little bit

[00:10:49] of just diving in and

[00:10:51] call out love because if you

[00:10:53] think about everything he's gone through

[00:10:55] these last few years

[00:10:57] in 2019 it was a Genoa

[00:10:59] team that were bottom when

[00:11:01] they hired him mid-season, got them to 17th

[00:11:03] Salernitana next

[00:11:05] bottom when they signed him, finished 17th

[00:11:07] then it was

[00:11:09] Torino, Torino weren't bottom

[00:11:11] when they signed him but still got them to 17th

[00:11:13] and

[00:11:15] have I done those all in order? I think it was

[00:11:17] Salernitana. I might have got

[00:11:19] the order if it's just wrong then but anyway

[00:11:21] four clubs before this one, then this

[00:11:23] one where he comes in in mid-season

[00:11:25] and they had

[00:11:27] let me just find my numbers, they were 19th this time

[00:11:29] but they obviously just fired

[00:11:31] Arreale and Deleazoli who was already

[00:11:33] their second manager of this campaign. At the point when

[00:11:35] Nicola took over

[00:11:37] this team had 13 points from 20 games

[00:11:39] and they had scored 11 goals

[00:11:41] pretty crazy stuff

[00:11:43] I still think Salernitana was probably

[00:11:45] his best performance

[00:11:47] to save the relegation

[00:11:51] and that was for me

[00:11:53] something I wouldn't have expected at the time

[00:11:55] because they were just so poor

[00:11:57] so to extract anything from that Salernitana

[00:11:59] was truly magnificent

[00:12:01] this remains to be so

[00:12:03] they had a 55%

[00:12:05] relegation rate

[00:12:07] they were analyzing statistically

[00:12:09] according to AI all the percentages

[00:12:11] of who was going to go down and in comparison

[00:12:13] to Frozinone and Udinese

[00:12:15] everyone had their money on

[00:12:17] Empoli. Now interestingly I also

[00:12:19] do a betting show and

[00:12:21] we were looking at the odds for Empoli

[00:12:23] to win this match against Roma

[00:12:25] and it was so high so it was like

[00:12:27] everyone was convinced

[00:12:29] Empoli was going to win this match

[00:12:31] I think that tells you something about what

[00:12:33] David and Nicola's reputation alone

[00:12:35] signifies and how much people believed

[00:12:37] in Empoli's ability or it could

[00:12:39] just be that they didn't believe in Roma

[00:12:43] yes because a lot of money started to come in

[00:12:45] there's one thing

[00:12:47] Pellegrini wasn't starting

[00:12:49] there was no Lukaku, no

[00:12:51] Di Balla, no Paredes who had

[00:12:53] gotten a red card so it wasn't exactly

[00:12:55] the best Roma and also we

[00:12:57] started to notice even as soon as

[00:12:59] De Rossi was announced Roma were not

[00:13:01] in optimum condition on a

[00:13:03] fitness level

[00:13:05] and you've started to see them

[00:13:07] slowly show you how gassed, how

[00:13:09] exhausted that they have been and obviously I think

[00:13:11] this has had an effect on their

[00:13:13] performances especially because De Rossi plays a

[00:13:15] different style of football that requires you to be completely

[00:13:17] concentrated

[00:13:19] there's a mental fatigue and there's a physical fatigue

[00:13:21] I think when you look at how

[00:13:23] the team is performing and I

[00:13:25] blame that because when they have been

[00:13:27] at their best I've seen

[00:13:29] Roma perform a lot better

[00:13:31] it's exactly what

[00:13:33] Patrick says, it's the end of

[00:13:35] the season, they've got nothing left to play for

[00:13:37] Empulli is just absolutely desperate at

[00:13:39] this point so

[00:13:41] and we know that

[00:13:43] David Inicola can do something

[00:14:05] 10 million men worldwide who trust

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[00:14:09] Manscaped.com to get 20% off

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[00:14:15] easy grooming, no surprises

[00:14:37] we did not see, we could not

[00:14:39] but she did

[00:14:41] and in the end

[00:14:43] what will I become?

[00:14:45] Senua Saga, Hellblade 2

[00:15:07] I do want to bring up a point that I think is

[00:15:09] I just want to quickly say

[00:15:11] because I feel bad for you and I'll be

[00:15:13] saying of course his first

[00:15:15] race was Crotone which is the one I missed

[00:15:17] because I was going through all of his mid-season joining

[00:15:19] that was the one of course Crotone where

[00:15:21] he marked it with his famous

[00:15:23] cycle ride all the way back up to Turin

[00:15:25] to the place where

[00:15:27] he was going to play

[00:15:29] and he was going to play in the

[00:15:31] same place where he was going to play

[00:15:33] and he was going to play in the same place where he was going to play

[00:15:35] and he was going to play in the same place where he was going to play

[00:15:37] and he was going to play in the same place where he was going to play

[00:15:39] and he was going to play in Turin

[00:15:41] to the place where his son

[00:15:43] was killed two years before

[00:15:45] so that was the most famous of all perhaps

[00:15:47] but he has had four mid-seasons

[00:15:49] since then and five in total

[00:15:51] finishing 17th place

[00:15:53] yeah Crotone it was truly a magical journey

[00:15:55] I just want to tell you about Roma

[00:15:57] just one thing yeah, three seasons right

[00:15:59] the last three seasons

[00:16:01] last three seasons they have got

[00:16:03] 11 losses and 11 losses

[00:16:05] it's deja vu

[00:16:07] honestly it's incredible that for three seasons in a row

[00:16:09] they have had everything beat

[00:16:11] exactly the same on that level

[00:16:13] and sixth, sixth and sixth I think as well

[00:16:15] isn't it? exactly

[00:16:17] diabolical numbers

[00:16:19] so nothing to be improved

[00:16:21] although listen in their defence

[00:16:23] I know there has been a lot that has come in

[00:16:25] because they do have the highest wage

[00:16:27] and when Marina used to complain about that

[00:16:29] I used to always be like

[00:16:31] I want to defend one thing like sometimes people think

[00:16:33] that money means greatness

[00:16:35] but you look at this team and it's really below par

[00:16:37] like it's not one that you should be

[00:16:39] giving the third highest wage bill to

[00:16:41] so I think it's sometimes

[00:16:43] maybe they have reached their level

[00:16:45] obviously Atalanta always manages to

[00:16:47] exceed expectations

[00:16:49] but generally speaking on a normal level

[00:16:51] I do think Roma need to better invest if they

[00:16:53] want to make Champions League and not maybe they're just

[00:16:55] paying too much because you look at

[00:16:57] the value of some of these players

[00:16:59] there's only two or three that you would say are good enough

[00:17:01] but I'm not sure about if this team is

[00:17:03] mediocre for me

[00:17:05] how confident are we still in

[00:17:07] De Rossi and in this club moving forward next season

[00:17:09] I think there's some really

[00:17:11] interesting decisions coming up this season

[00:17:13] this summer sorry, one or two

[00:17:15] really great discoveries they've had this season right

[00:17:17] I mean is Villarín Gold? Absolutely

[00:17:19] looks like he's going to be doing that job

[00:17:21] for them for a while and doing it well

[00:17:23] but overall

[00:17:25] as Marina's just hinted at there is a lot on that

[00:17:27] wage bill they're going to have to shift some of it

[00:17:29] some of it's going to be easy to shift

[00:17:31] Lukaku almost certainly we don't expect to see back in Rome next season

[00:17:33] but Patrick

[00:17:35] I know Mina has been enthusiastic about De Rossi previously

[00:17:37] I'm interested to know how you feel about De Rossi now that we've had

[00:17:39] not just the initial bump

[00:17:41] but we've got to the end of the season with him

[00:17:43] Well that's exactly the point

[00:17:45] I think he has everything to prove because the initial

[00:17:47] bump has worn off

[00:17:49] and it's always hard to ascertain how much of it was

[00:17:51] that initial bounce and then how much of it

[00:17:53] was actually his

[00:17:55] tactical excellence and his ability to set up the team

[00:17:57] and motivate players and improve players

[00:17:59] and what I find is interesting

[00:18:01] is Mille Svila has been actually

[00:18:03] considered as a De Rossi discovery

[00:18:05] but ironically he actually started

[00:18:07] Mourinho's last game in charge

[00:18:09] which was the defeat at Milan so technically

[00:18:11] you could even attribute that discovery to

[00:18:13] Mourinho as his last great act

[00:18:15] as Roma boss. I don't know

[00:18:17] I mean I think if you were to compare

[00:18:19] the two and obviously that's always going to be

[00:18:21] the way that De Rossi is considered

[00:18:23] until or unless he is at Roma

[00:18:25] for several years and the memory of Mourinho

[00:18:27] starts to fade but it's always going to be

[00:18:29] that dichotomy I think isn't it

[00:18:31] it's going to be Mourinho or De Rossi

[00:18:33] and I've even noticed it

[00:18:35] every time Roma don't get a

[00:18:37] result now I mean we should take

[00:18:39] what is said on social media

[00:18:41] with a pinch of salt

[00:18:43] I think we saw that again this weekend and I'm sure

[00:18:45] we'll get onto that when talking about Aleksandar

[00:18:47] and Stefano Pioli amongst others

[00:18:49] but it is quite interesting every time that Roma don't get a

[00:18:51] result on Twitter and on YouTube

[00:18:53] there are all these comments from some of the

[00:18:55] Mourinho fanboys saying

[00:18:57] oh thank God De Rossi was Roma's saviour

[00:18:59] and all of this sort of stuff so I have chuckled

[00:19:01] at that to be honest but um

[00:19:03] yeah I'd be very interested

[00:19:05] to see I think De Rossi is going to be given a bit of

[00:19:07] leeway because I think there's going to be a huge

[00:19:09] rebuild for Roma over the summer

[00:19:11] that could work out very well

[00:19:13] it could also be very challenging

[00:19:15] so I'm curious to see

[00:19:17] what happens with De Rossi I think he's

[00:19:19] he's definitely got the clout he looks

[00:19:21] the part says the right things he communicates

[00:19:23] very well but remains to be seen

[00:19:25] whether he can improve this team beyond

[00:19:27] the current level which as Mena

[00:19:29] has just eloquently expressed is

[00:19:31] the same and has been for three years

[00:19:33] Let's get back

[00:19:35] to to Empoli quickly

[00:19:37] needs to be said this is their

[00:19:39] first time ever they're going to have a fourth consecutive

[00:19:41] season in Serie A so it's already a historic

[00:19:43] feat for them to be this consistently

[00:19:45] in Serie A I think

[00:19:47] they've had come through some pretty

[00:19:49] significant

[00:19:51] losses over the course of the season in terms of

[00:19:53] players departing obviously everyone knows

[00:19:55] about Piccardi going to Tottenham and

[00:19:57] showing how good he can be

[00:19:59] Elia Caprile who came in to replace him has actually been

[00:20:01] pretty good they got off to a bit of a rocky start

[00:20:03] I think he had

[00:20:05] a bad game against Verona right at the start of the season and he was

[00:20:07] out for a month with an ankle injury

[00:20:09] so he got off to a rough start but I think he ended the season

[00:20:11] much stronger the bigger issues for them

[00:20:13] have been up front all the way through this season

[00:20:15] and selling Baldanzi in the middle of the season just

[00:20:17] when it looked like he might be breaking out obviously

[00:20:19] didn't help but

[00:20:21] they did bring in Niang who was

[00:20:23] on alone but my understanding is they

[00:20:25] have the option to extend that by a year which could certainly

[00:20:27] be something you would expect them to do

[00:20:29] Alberto Cerri was the other player they signed

[00:20:31] in the middle of the season

[00:20:33] his time there slightly disrupted by injury

[00:20:35] I think it's very hard to have a confident

[00:20:37] say on how they'll

[00:20:39] go forward but

[00:20:41] I do think we all

[00:20:43] probably believe Davidi Nicola deserves a chance

[00:20:45] to start a season rather than just end one

[00:20:47] some previous stints when he

[00:20:49] started the season haven't always gone all that well

[00:20:51] but you can't say he hasn't

[00:20:53] earned it after yet another

[00:20:55] miracle let's go to the other

[00:20:57] relegation game this weekend

[00:20:59] Frosinone against Udinese

[00:21:01] it finished as we said 1-0

[00:21:03] to Udinese it was an

[00:21:05] Englishman Keenan Davis who

[00:21:07] joined from Watford who came off the bench

[00:21:09] and scored his first goal of the season

[00:21:11] to decide this one with the help

[00:21:13] I should say of I thought really good target

[00:21:15] man work from Lorenzo Luca inside the box

[00:21:17] honestly

[00:21:19] poor Frosinone is my biggest

[00:21:21] feeling on this one that they were good in this game

[00:21:23] they haven't been all season obviously they wouldn't

[00:21:25] be where they are but they had a lot of

[00:21:27] chances and

[00:21:29] a number of saves by Okoye

[00:21:31] from Udinese including some that

[00:21:33] probably looked a bit more dramatic than they really were

[00:21:35] but some that really were good saves

[00:21:37] and hard

[00:21:39] not to have some emotional

[00:21:41] feeling for

[00:21:43] Di Francesco as he was

[00:21:45] being consoled by Cannavaro

[00:21:47] at full time how do we

[00:21:49] feel about both the Cannavaro

[00:21:51] beginning and also

[00:21:53] Frosinone's chance of bouncing straight back

[00:21:55] Mina?

[00:22:04] You can pick either whichever one you'd rather talk about

[00:22:06] It's just that I guess the one

[00:22:08] thing that if I'm to talk about

[00:22:10] Frosinone over the season is

[00:22:12] they have been so fun to watch from an

[00:22:14] attacking point of view and that now

[00:22:16] has become more important than anything in the world

[00:22:18] you know like it's like so often

[00:22:20] I have to feel like I'm reminding

[00:22:22] people that football is

[00:22:24] you have to do two things in a football match

[00:22:26] which is defend and attack but now

[00:22:28] the only thing people seek is to attack and that

[00:22:30] is what I think Frosinone at the end

[00:22:32] of the day when you look at their

[00:22:34] defensive statistics

[00:22:36] it's just the worst right? So

[00:22:38] only Salernitana and

[00:22:40] Sassuolo have been worse

[00:22:42] so if you look at that in the end

[00:22:44] the three worst defences are the three that have been

[00:22:46] relegated and that's just something that we don't pay attention

[00:22:48] to and Di Francesco has always

[00:22:50] had this problem when it comes to defences

[00:22:52] his teams always play well going forward but defensively

[00:22:54] they haven't

[00:22:56] Stierpe who is the president

[00:22:58] of Frosinone was really distraught

[00:23:00] afterwards when he was talking about it

[00:23:02] I felt very sad for him because it's a very

[00:23:04] well run club and they wanted

[00:23:06] to have the sustainable project that did

[00:23:08] revolve around youth and as he

[00:23:10] mentioned sometimes with youngsters

[00:23:12] they don't perform when you need them

[00:23:14] to which is that efficiency

[00:23:16] that sometimes you require from

[00:23:18] the experienced talent right?

[00:23:20] Like there's a lot of times when Candreva will

[00:23:22] come in and do something extraordinary and that will

[00:23:24] save Salernitana although not

[00:23:26] too often but Sassuolo

[00:23:28] not too often this season but

[00:23:30] how much of a loss has Berardi been for

[00:23:32] Sassuolo right? Even if they've had all the

[00:23:34] talented individuals like Lorienti

[00:23:36] but it's Berardi that you would always look to

[00:23:38] and I think that's

[00:23:40] the important

[00:23:42] thing that perhaps Frosinone may have

[00:23:44] missed but for me it is

[00:23:46] the fact that I think that they're defensively very

[00:23:48] naive, the team played in a very

[00:23:50] naive manner throughout which was a lot of fun to

[00:23:52] watch. I was surprised by this

[00:23:54] in all honesty

[00:23:56] largely because they were playing at home

[00:23:58] and there's one thing that you bet on is

[00:24:00] Frosinone to score a goal at home

[00:24:02] maybe not win but score a goal at home

[00:24:04] they've always been so magnificent at home

[00:24:06] They hit the woodwork twice

[00:24:08] and it's like you said

[00:24:10] there was a really

[00:24:12] good goalkeeping performance

[00:24:14] there so it's one that you wouldn't have expected

[00:24:18] watching Difra

[00:24:20] be so

[00:24:22] upset, it was

[00:24:24] sad to watch but I also

[00:24:26] think that I'm glad it's not Udinese

[00:24:28] going down as well because for me they are somewhat

[00:24:30] of an institute in Seriano

[00:24:32] This was a team that was pushing

[00:24:34] top four that had managed to make it

[00:24:36] and it was so fun to watch

[00:24:38] and there's been a massive slide

[00:24:40] in the way that they have been performed

[00:24:42] and it was really unusual to see them there

[00:24:44] but if I was going to have to pick

[00:24:46] a team, I'm sorry it would have been Empoli

[00:24:48] so I'm quite

[00:24:50] surprised but

[00:24:52] I mean I just I guess at the end

[00:24:54] with Frosinone I do think that they have enough

[00:24:56] to come back up so I'm not too

[00:24:58] upset about it all

[00:25:00] Just speaking about the

[00:25:02] Frosinone thing, it's actually ironic

[00:25:04] because everyone says that De Francesco

[00:25:06] teams can't defend

[00:25:08] they actually went into this game on the back of four clean

[00:25:10] sheets from their previous five, five clean

[00:25:12] sheets from their previous seven so they had actually

[00:25:14] built a platform there, they were starting

[00:25:16] to keep clean sheets

[00:25:18] and I thought it was a very good performance, they never really looked like

[00:25:20] conceding, it was just that one moment

[00:25:22] apart from a couple of nerdy moments from the start

[00:25:24] Paul Lirona made a couple

[00:25:26] of mistakes but aside from the goal

[00:25:28] they looked very solid, it didn't look like

[00:25:30] Udinese were going to score at all

[00:25:32] and Akoya played excellently

[00:25:34] I think the three saves were outstanding

[00:25:36] in particular the one from the Akoli header

[00:25:38] they hit the bar with free kick

[00:25:40] from Solé

[00:25:42] the other one that hit the post

[00:25:44] Brescianini was never really going

[00:25:46] in but

[00:25:48] yeah I just think

[00:25:50] that's what football comes down to, is the big moments really

[00:25:52] the big games and all they needed to do was

[00:25:54] avoid defeat and once you don't

[00:25:56] score you need to make sure

[00:25:58] what clean sheets?

[00:26:00] I'm trying to look at that

[00:26:02] so they lost Udinese

[00:26:04] they won against Monza

[00:26:06] but they conceded

[00:26:08] five against Udinese

[00:26:10] they had four clean sheets in their previous five games

[00:26:12] five clean sheets in their previous seven

[00:26:14] one of them Salé, Nitana and Emporé

[00:26:16] it's not really great right?

[00:26:18] it's still fine

[00:26:20] I wouldn't say that

[00:26:22] it's hard to judge it when it's the last

[00:26:24] five games of the season

[00:26:26] I think one of them was a goalless draw against Bologna

[00:26:28] was it not?

[00:26:30] I can't see that

[00:26:34] we've been waxing lyrical about Bologna

[00:26:36] there's not Bologna in the last six

[00:26:38] so am I dreaming?

[00:26:40] it might be five in the last seven

[00:26:42] so it's 0-0 against Torino

[00:26:44] 3-0 against Salé, Nitana

[00:26:46] I think we're picking hairs but it's a games guy

[00:26:48] I just don't think that

[00:26:50] they're still not defensively good

[00:26:52] come on, that's a weird thing to say

[00:26:54] I think it's a game of the end that they didn't consider

[00:26:56] against teams that don't care anymore

[00:26:58] for them to have started building a platform

[00:27:00] I'm not sure about

[00:27:02] he switched to a back three and they started keeping clean sheets

[00:27:04] and they started to get results which kept them

[00:27:06] alive until the final day

[00:27:08] it was absolutely a concession

[00:27:10] that he could no longer go gung ho anymore

[00:27:12] and play a back four

[00:27:14] it was all about the back three with

[00:27:16] Lerode, Romagnoli and Okoli

[00:27:18] that's why players like Monterey who had been previously part of the back four

[00:27:20] weren't getting a look

[00:27:22] at the way Di Francesco

[00:27:24] did away with

[00:27:26] the way he was approaching things

[00:27:28] and he had been considered this dogmatic

[00:27:30] coach, 4-3-3, gung ho all the time

[00:27:32] that interresult aside

[00:27:34] when they lost 5-0 but

[00:27:36] Barenice were suspended for that game

[00:27:38] I actually think they were a lot more solid

[00:27:40] and Udinese never really looked like scoring

[00:27:42] and lest we forget, Udinese

[00:27:44] were lucky to be where they were in the first place

[00:27:46] because they scored that 104th minute

[00:27:48] penalty from Samarjic the previous weekend

[00:27:50] which is the latest goal in Serie A history

[00:27:52] to get a draw against Empoli

[00:27:54] Do you want to come back Mina?

[00:27:58] Listen, for me

[00:28:00] the one thing I can say about Frosinone is that

[00:28:02] Di Francesco

[00:28:04] for some reason he is so beloved by a lot of coaches

[00:28:06] so that means that everyone

[00:28:08] talks about him on a tactical level

[00:28:10] I will never forget what he managed to do to Barcelona

[00:28:12] when he was in charge of Roma

[00:28:14] I think that was probably one of the greatest nights I've ever watched

[00:28:16] in European football

[00:28:18] but ever since the end of December

[00:28:20] it's been tragic for Frosinone

[00:28:22] I'm looking at it like

[00:28:24] if you look at their stats, they managed one win

[00:28:26] which was against Calieri

[00:28:28] in January and the rest is all

[00:28:30] losses, losses, losses, losses

[00:28:32] so between the 23rd of December

[00:28:34] until the 16th of March

[00:28:36] it was all losses except 2 draws and 1 win

[00:28:38] and it's just

[00:28:40] it's been that run that they had

[00:28:42] so if you fixed it or didn't fix it

[00:28:44] you can't go that many

[00:28:46] weeks being so abject, poor

[00:28:48] and I think it's very strange

[00:28:50] Lecce did it, I mean it happens

[00:28:52] it comes down to your overall points

[00:28:54] at the end of the season

[00:28:56] absolutely, you're right about that

[00:28:58] and I think just the first half of the season though

[00:29:00] I think when you saw how good they were

[00:29:02] to then have that massive drop

[00:29:04] towards after December

[00:29:06] was disconcerting because it looks like people

[00:29:08] figured out exactly what they needed to do against them

[00:29:10] and then he didn't know how to change up

[00:29:12] so obviously he did find a way of doing that towards the end

[00:29:14] and he will always be regarded as

[00:29:16] a good coach so I'm not taking anything away

[00:29:18] but I do think that that run

[00:29:20] in the second half of the season

[00:29:22] has been so poor and that is what condemned

[00:29:24] them, a little bit like what happened to Juventus

[00:29:26] a lot of others who just collapsed in the second half

[00:29:28] of the season and happened to them too

[00:29:30] and defensively I think it's the 3 worst defences

[00:29:32] have gone down which

[00:29:34] shows you that defence counts more than attack

[00:29:36] but people will tell you otherwise

[00:29:38] because Deserby still gets jobs

[00:29:40] I do think that's reductive

[00:29:42] I have this slight feeling that actually

[00:29:44] a lot of this does still come down to your attackers

[00:29:46] because in the end we are talking about

[00:29:48] very fine margins, right? We're talking about

[00:29:50] a situation where it could have gone

[00:29:52] for any of these three clubs on the final day

[00:29:54] and right up until the last minute of the season

[00:29:56] Foziannone was staying up

[00:29:58] and actually maybe there is something

[00:30:00] in the fact that Matias Sule, who has been brilliant

[00:30:02] overall if you take a season

[00:30:04] as a young player and look what he did

[00:30:06] but maybe there is something to the fact that he didn't score

[00:30:08] I think he scored one goal after the 3rd of February

[00:30:10] so actually his goals this season

[00:30:12] were very front loaded

[00:30:14] meanwhile Nyang shows up and scores some goals

[00:30:16] at really opportune times for Mpoly

[00:30:18] that decides the season actually

[00:30:20] being able to put the ball in the net at the right moments

[00:30:22] the right games decides the season

[00:30:24] so while I take your point generally about defensive

[00:30:26] tightness, I do think

[00:30:28] the lower down the division you go

[00:30:30] the less often you see good goal scorers

[00:30:32] inevitably

[00:30:34] and therefore having the one player who will

[00:30:36] get that goal for you at the critical moment becomes even more important

[00:30:38] Well I can also count

[00:30:40] when Willid Kadiere started to show up only in the second half of the season

[00:30:42] so it was Sule

[00:30:44] and when he's dropped off it's when Willid Kadiere

[00:30:46] started to come in

[00:30:48] you know what your team is

[00:30:50] you know that your problem with your team

[00:30:52] right now is that you can't rely on efficiency

[00:30:54] you can't rely on striking efficiency

[00:30:56] so show up your defence

[00:30:58] and if you don't know how to do that, then I think that's the first thing

[00:31:00] that you have to do

[00:31:02] when?

[00:31:04] We just said it, 4 clean sheets in 5

[00:31:06] 5 clean sheets in 7

[00:31:08] I already told you that that's not true

[00:31:10] so I don't know why we're repeating it

[00:31:12] What do you mean it's not true? Just look at the statistics

[00:31:14] I commented on the match, I can get my notes

[00:31:16] I mean unless I'm...

[00:31:18] I'm looking at them now in 5 clean sheets

[00:31:20] in the last 4, hold on

[00:31:22] OK so you're saying

[00:31:27] OK

[00:31:29] If you don't want to be actually in the Udinese game

[00:31:31] because you would have been saying that in commentary before that game

[00:31:33] right, so yes

[00:31:35] When you said 8, I was saying are you counting the Udinese again

[00:31:37] which obviously isn't a clean sheet

[00:31:39] I'm trying to double check both of you now

[00:31:41] because you're disagreeing

[00:31:43] I don't know if he's right

[00:31:45] I'm just looking

[00:31:47] I won't be spouting fake news on the airwaves

[00:31:49] Yeah because I was counting in my head

[00:31:51] Udinese so I was like what are you going to do about that

[00:31:53] OK, right

[00:31:55] So in my head I was like no that's not what it is

[00:31:57] but yeah I don't know

[00:31:59] I mean I don't think that's something that he's fixed

[00:32:01] I think that he was lucky to face opponents that weren't pushing everything

[00:32:03] so

[00:32:05] I'm never going to say to me

[00:32:07] I mean it's very hard for me to be like yeah

[00:32:09] Di Francesco has managed to figure out defensively

[00:32:11] this guy is never going to like, it's going to take a while

[00:32:13] until he proves that you know

[00:32:15] He's damned if he doesn't then

[00:32:17] I mean that's concrete evidence that his teams are defending

[00:32:19] What more do you want from him

[00:32:21] No it's not

[00:32:23] Concrete defence is not the last five games of the season

[00:32:25] That's not how you count that because that's impossible to say that

[00:32:27] because you're paying against, like you said

[00:32:29] Empoli won against Roma

[00:32:31] Would that have happened at the start of the season when it was all competitive?

[00:32:33] Unlikely right

[00:32:35] I mean it was a very competitive season

[00:32:37] because you know the numbers of what had come in

[00:32:39] At the point for American Bets

[00:32:41] Empoli was at plus 100

[00:32:43] and for Roma to win it was plus 255

[00:32:45] That would have never happened

[00:33:05] Ok, round two

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[00:33:43] We've never seen Milan sell any time

[00:33:45] It's much less likely for San Bernardino

[00:33:47] to all of a sudden start scoring goals

[00:33:49] when their opponents

[00:33:51] We can also say about San Bernardino being now

[00:33:53] Oh, a team

[00:33:55] They came in first and were really shocking

[00:33:57] They drew 3-3 against Milan

[00:33:59] They won against Juventus

[00:34:01] They won against Juventus

[00:34:03] But we're not going to look at Salini-Taner

[00:34:05] and be like wow, they really changed it around

[00:34:07] once they got relegated

[00:34:09] No, I'm saying that my

[00:34:11] Patrick, you made a point

[00:34:13] I'm coming back to defend my point

[00:34:15] You're bringing in Salini-Taner to make the point

[00:34:17] Because Salini-Taner also changed it around

[00:34:19] but we can't say that they did

[00:34:21] That's my point is that you can't base

[00:34:23] a season or the fact that Di Francesco has

[00:34:25] changed something based on the last five matches

[00:34:27] because I don't think that that is the true proof

[00:34:29] of the fact that he's learnt his lessons

[00:34:31] and I can point to Salini-Taner as being

[00:34:33] a team that also changed it

[00:34:35] but again, I wouldn't credit them for having changed it

[00:34:37] Does that make sense?

[00:34:39] I just think, as Nikki said, these are really

[00:34:41] small, fine margins

[00:34:43] I think the argument is about whether or not that's the real reason

[00:34:45] And I do think we can say

[00:34:47] some of the

[00:34:49] I'm going to be the defence sitter as usual

[00:34:51] and say I take some of Mina's point because if you look at the games they've played

[00:34:53] Torino, not exactly an attacking force

[00:34:55] Salini-Taner, not an attacking force

[00:34:57] Inter, we've just been discussing their problems in front of goal

[00:34:59] Then they do get walloped 5-0 by Inter

[00:35:01] Then it's Monza

[00:35:03] So there are a bunch of games in there that aren't that big

[00:35:05] Having said that, they did play Bologna at the time

[00:35:07] and Bologna were fighting for

[00:35:09] very much fighting for a top four spot

[00:35:11] at the beginning of April and that was 0-0 as well

[00:35:13] I'm going to be the defence sitter in this one

[00:35:17] Inter beat Fiorentina 4-0

[00:35:19] They beat Milan 5-1, they beat Roma 4-2

[00:35:21] They beat Napoli 3-0

[00:35:23] So I think bringing in

[00:35:25] Inter as the example of them conceding 5-0

[00:35:27] is a bit harsh as well to be honest

[00:35:29] I get where you're coming from, although Inter did

[00:35:31] also manage to not beat Sassuolo of course

[00:35:33] because football's weird sometimes

[00:35:35] Let's not just have this argument

[00:35:37] Can we talk about Fabio Cannavaro?

[00:35:39] Let's keep it moving

[00:35:41] Let's talk about Fabio Cannavaro

[00:35:43] who's been amazing

[00:35:45] Cannavaro, is he, so we've just agreed

[00:35:47] that De Rossi we are absolutely certain

[00:35:49] is or isn't the answer

[00:35:51] Is Cannavaro the answer?

[00:35:53] I think De Rossi is the answer

[00:35:55] We didn't talk about that

[00:35:57] I don't know if he's the answer but I definitely think

[00:35:59] he deserves a shot

[00:36:01] We've just got a floating thumbs up on producer Simon's screen

[00:36:03] Thumbs down, I think thumbs down isn't it?

[00:36:05] Thumbs down, sorry

[00:36:07] Sorry, sorry, I meant thumbs down

[00:36:09] Poor Simon

[00:36:11] Cannavaro though, impressive

[00:36:13] Certainly from a results perspective, right?

[00:36:15] We're impressed with Cannavaro from a results perspective

[00:36:17] Mina

[00:36:19] Oh god, no

[00:36:21] So again, how can we count that?

[00:36:23] How? I don't know how we can base it on

[00:36:25] the fact that he's been in charge of

[00:36:27] five games and again it's the end

[00:36:29] of the season and no one cares

[00:36:31] So I don't know how to judge whether or not

[00:36:33] he's managed to revive something

[00:36:35] It would be good on him to have rescued them

[00:36:37] They started to show a different mentality at least

[00:36:39] so I hope that that leads them forward

[00:36:41] I always want Fabio Cannavaro to succeed

[00:36:43] because it's Fabio Cannavaro, right?

[00:36:45] But I find it really hard

[00:36:47] to draw any conclusions from his tenure

[00:36:49] Patrick, are you going with that or are you

[00:36:51] discreet?

[00:36:53] Well again, I would argue

[00:36:55] what can he be judged against

[00:36:59] if not results if he comes in and is given

[00:37:01] five matches to try and keep them

[00:37:03] in the division and he's fulfilled his objective

[00:37:05] which I think ultimately is what he did

[00:37:07] And the one game he lost was that game

[00:37:09] which was played in installments against Roma

[00:37:11] when Cristante scored in the last minute

[00:37:13] So look, he was

[00:37:15] fortunate in that

[00:37:17] Udinese got that ridiculously late penalty

[00:37:19] and but for that penalty

[00:37:21] then Empoli win that game

[00:37:23] Empoli start the match outside the drop zone

[00:37:25] and maybe it's even outside of Udinese's hands

[00:37:27] But you make your own luck as well

[00:37:29] They rode their luck against Frosinone

[00:37:31] because his goalkeeper produced an excellent

[00:37:33] performance, they needed the crossbar to keep

[00:37:35] out that free kick

[00:37:37] But he'd been talking the build up to the game about Kenan Davis

[00:37:39] about whether to start him or bring him off the bench

[00:37:41] because he felt they could breathe new life

[00:37:43] into their strike force

[00:37:45] And he introduced him for the second half

[00:37:47] and he was ultimately the match winner

[00:37:49] So I think it does come down to brave decisions

[00:37:51] and I was quite impressed with

[00:37:53] Cannavada, he also said in his post-match press conference

[00:37:55] bristling a little bit

[00:37:57] He said, I've got nothing to prove

[00:37:59] It's been a decade of me coaching all over the world

[00:38:01] I don't have to, you know, he feels

[00:38:03] a little bit slighted by the fact

[00:38:05] that in Italy he doesn't have much of a reputation as a coach

[00:38:07] so he's not bothered about

[00:38:09] the fact that he's now kept Udinese

[00:38:11] up and is getting applauded, he's quite confident

[00:38:13] in his own ability

[00:38:15] And I thought it was a nice gesture for him

[00:38:17] embracing Di Francesco

[00:38:19] His brother Paolo played under him at Sassuolo

[00:38:21] He also said that he was teammates

[00:38:23] with Di Francesco Fabio, that he was trying to work out

[00:38:25] where that could be

[00:38:27] I was scratching my head about that

[00:38:29] So if anyone knows that, then

[00:38:31] answers on a postcard

[00:38:33] But I was impressed with Cannavada

[00:38:35] They started in an awkward position

[00:38:37] Udinese because

[00:38:39] it was a very weird

[00:38:41] Shout out to Matteo Bonetti actually

[00:38:43] He put out a very good tweet which basically said

[00:38:45] that all three of the teams going

[00:38:47] into the final day had their fate in their own

[00:38:49] hands, which is almost unheard of if you think about it

[00:38:51] because Frosinone

[00:38:53] just needed to avoid defeat, they were definitely safe

[00:38:55] Udinese needed to win and they were definitely safe

[00:38:57] and Empoli needed to win and they were

[00:38:59] definitely safe

[00:39:01] Udinese were the middle one of those three

[00:39:03] teams and for large

[00:39:05] swathes of the match until Neon scores

[00:39:07] late on, a draw would have been enough

[00:39:09] to actually go out and consciously

[00:39:11] pursue the victory and then get it, I thought

[00:39:13] was excellent game management

[00:39:15] from Cannavada

[00:39:18] Well put

[00:39:20] What we'd like to do, we've been saying for this

[00:39:22] episode is try to have at least a word

[00:39:24] on every team, so we're going to try now to

[00:39:26] move on from those games that were the

[00:39:28] really impactful ones at the bottom of the table

[00:39:30] to go through the rest of the games this weekend

[00:39:32] Trying to have at least a quick

[00:39:34] comment on everyone

[00:39:36] Do you know, I actually thought before

[00:39:40] we started maybe we'd do these in table order

[00:39:42] but maybe I think it's easiest if we just go

[00:39:44] through them in the order that they

[00:39:46] are on the run sheet of the weekend

[00:39:48] So let's spin our way all the way back to Thursday

[00:39:50] Of course we were still busy

[00:39:52] Giddy from Atlantis at that point and we will

[00:39:54] get to Atlanta, but let's start with Thursday

[00:39:56] We had Fiorentina 3, Caliari 2

[00:39:58] Fiorentina of course

[00:40:00] have now locked down

[00:40:02] 8th place in the table

[00:40:04] They are guaranteed into Europe

[00:40:06] and they have a chance to upgrade

[00:40:08] themselves from the Europa Conference League

[00:40:10] to the Europa League if they can win

[00:40:12] the Europa Conference League which as everyone

[00:40:14] knows they have reached the final off for the

[00:40:16] second season running and they are playing that on Wednesday night

[00:40:18] Fiorentina

[00:40:20] I really feel like

[00:40:22] we've gone back and forth from them this season

[00:40:24] about whether or not this constitutes

[00:40:26] a positive season for them

[00:40:28] and speaking

[00:40:30] only for myself, I think I

[00:40:32] have now reached the point where for me

[00:40:34] I have to call this a positive season because I think

[00:40:36] a team with still

[00:40:38] plenty of gaps

[00:40:40] in its squad has managed

[00:40:42] to juggle going all the way

[00:40:44] to the Europa League Conference League final

[00:40:46] with additional commitments like indeed

[00:40:48] playing even in the Supercoppa in the middle of the season

[00:40:50] with the distraction

[00:40:52] distraction is a horrible way to put it, I'm sorry

[00:40:54] for not phrasing that better, with an awful thing happening

[00:40:56] in the middle of the season which is the death of a director

[00:40:58] Joe Barone who was extremely involved

[00:41:00] in the running of the club and was someone who

[00:41:02] meant a lot to a lot of people

[00:41:04] I think for me, for that team to have

[00:41:06] finished once again in Europe guaranteed

[00:41:08] with an option, a possibility

[00:41:10] of going up to the Europa League

[00:41:12] I'm calling that another positive season for

[00:41:14] Vincenzo Italiano. Patrick, are you with me on this?

[00:41:16] I am

[00:41:18] and I think lest we forget they made

[00:41:20] the Coppa Italia semi-finals as well

[00:41:22] and whilst the overall

[00:41:24] aggregate scoreline looked very heavy

[00:41:26] lest we forget they went down to 10 men in that

[00:41:28] game, Milenkovic was sent off

[00:41:30] a dog-sail denying

[00:41:32] a goalscoring opportunity on Skamaka

[00:41:34] and

[00:41:36] they actually, Martinez Quarta

[00:41:38] came off the bench when they were

[00:41:40] down to 10 men, scored the goal, they were actually ahead

[00:41:42] it was 1-1 on the night

[00:41:44] 2-1 on aggregate and Atalanta scored a

[00:41:46] flurry of goals late on, Lookman

[00:41:48] and Paschalic so they could have feasibly made

[00:41:50] the Coppa Italia final as well

[00:41:52] having made it last season. I think

[00:41:54] Italiano's done a very good job because

[00:41:56] ultimately, to me, football comes down

[00:41:58] to trophies and

[00:42:00] Fiorentina's a great club

[00:42:02] it's a one club city

[00:42:04] it's a big city

[00:42:08] and I think if you're born somewhere

[00:42:10] like Florence, just like if you're born

[00:42:12] in Rome, then you come from

[00:42:14] one of the most beautiful cities on Earth

[00:42:16] so naturally you want

[00:42:18] your football team to

[00:42:20] reflect that in terms of pride and you want them

[00:42:22] to be successful

[00:42:24] and I think they have been successful under Italiano

[00:42:26] Conference League final last season

[00:42:28] Coppa Italia final last season

[00:42:30] Coppa Italia semi-final

[00:42:32] this season, Coppa Italia semi-final in his first

[00:42:34] year as well when they lost to Juventus over two

[00:42:36] legs. And they're in the

[00:42:38] Conference League final again, I think it will

[00:42:40] come down to whether or not he's able to win on Wednesday

[00:42:42] night. I think it goes from being

[00:42:44] an outstanding spell if they win the

[00:42:46] Conference League to being

[00:42:48] an above average one if they were

[00:42:50] to lose it. He's definitely going to leave

[00:42:52] the club but I think by

[00:42:54] that token, if you are going to reach

[00:42:56] Cup finals then your league position

[00:42:58] is a fairly moot point to be honest

[00:43:00] I mean if you were to ask Fiorentina fans would you

[00:43:02] rather win the Conference League

[00:43:04] and finish eighth

[00:43:06] or whatever it is they're going to be or would you rather

[00:43:08] not win a trophy

[00:43:10] go out as also runs and finish

[00:43:12] fourth? I'm pretty sure they choose

[00:43:14] the former option to be honest and we saw

[00:43:16] with Roma winning the Conference League just what it means to

[00:43:18] win a trophy and what it means to win a

[00:43:20] European trophy. So I'm a fan of Italiano

[00:43:22] and I like the way that he has targeted

[00:43:24] the Cup competitions

[00:43:26] because he's aware of where Fiorentina

[00:43:28] sit in the domestic food chain which is behind

[00:43:30] most of their rivals.

[00:43:32] Yeah, I agree

[00:43:34] with all of that really.

[00:43:36] Mina Vincenzo Italiano, where do you think

[00:43:38] he'll be next season? Where would you like him to be next season?

[00:43:42] Oh I don't know. He is

[00:43:44] truly one of the

[00:43:46] better Italian tankticians that we've seen

[00:43:48] and you know

[00:43:50] I really did want to see him in Napoli

[00:43:52] but that looks like it's Antonio Conte

[00:43:54] which is, I think it's a much better fit

[00:43:56] I think Conte is exactly the coach that

[00:43:58] Napoli should be going for. So

[00:44:00] when it comes to Italiano, I don't

[00:44:02] know what is considered a step up on

[00:44:04] Fiorentina that is

[00:44:06] realistic for him at the moment

[00:44:08] and I don't know because Lazio and Roma have

[00:44:10] their coaches for next season so do

[00:44:12] the top four right or at least one

[00:44:14] according to the rumors. So I'm not sure

[00:44:16] what the step up is from Fiorentina

[00:44:18] and I think that what he's done

[00:44:20] it's difficult right because he

[00:44:22] keeps growing in our

[00:44:24] view. Italiano

[00:44:26] has become one of the best coaches and we

[00:44:28] always talk about it so that means our

[00:44:30] expectations of him are also continuing

[00:44:32] to grow like at some point I feel like

[00:44:34] people are demanding that he reaches top five because

[00:44:36] he's done so many good things

[00:44:38] but it's just unrealistic when you look at the team

[00:44:40] when you look at the depth, when you look at the money and honestly

[00:44:42] when you look at the state of the strikers it is

[00:44:44] hideous you know. The fact

[00:44:46] that he managed to get them to two European Cup

[00:44:48] finals is beyond anything

[00:44:50] that I would have imagined for them

[00:44:52] I honestly don't

[00:44:54] know what his next step is, I'm interested

[00:44:56] to see but I really do feel like if anyone

[00:44:58] should be going to the Premier League I'd

[00:45:00] like to see Italiano there because I think he'd be

[00:45:02] magnificent to watch. He's been linked

[00:45:04] with Bologna very heavily, I don't know

[00:45:06] if that's a step up. They'd be playing Champions League

[00:45:08] football, I think it's sideways

[00:45:10] move. Well it's a step up for a season

[00:45:12] isn't it but in the long term

[00:45:14] is it a step up? Probably not, I think

[00:45:16] they're pretty

[00:45:18] even clubs to be honest between Bologna

[00:45:20] and Fiorentina. I think both fan bases would

[00:45:22] probably get annoyed at me saying that because Bologna

[00:45:24] have the history with all the league titles and Fiorentina

[00:45:26] have relative recent

[00:45:28] success compared with Bologna but yeah

[00:45:30] I guess it depends whether he thinks I'd love to

[00:45:32] be in the Champions League

[00:45:34] and look at what Thiago Mota's done

[00:45:36] I want to be able to do something similar so

[00:45:38] he's going to be out of work unless he wants to take a year off

[00:45:40] but there we go.

[00:45:42] I think, maybe you disagree

[00:45:44] on this but I think what you just said

[00:45:46] there is interesting Patrick because

[00:45:48] unlike some managers who I think can take that

[00:45:50] sabbatical comfortably, I think

[00:45:52] Italiano's name still hasn't acquired

[00:45:54] that international stature where if he takes

[00:45:56] sabbatical he's going to retain his current

[00:45:58] cache so I actually think he kind of needs to keep moving

[00:46:00] on upwards at the moment

[00:46:02] and whether or not Bologna is that upwards

[00:46:04] we can agree or disagree on but I do think

[00:46:06] he probably, of course

[00:46:08] everyone is a real person if he wants it for his personal life

[00:46:10] he should take it for his personal life but I do think

[00:46:12] I think

[00:46:14] he kind of needs to strike while the iron's hot

[00:46:16] in terms of his current

[00:46:18] progress. Cavieri

[00:46:20] having said we're going to talk about every team I'm not sure

[00:46:22] what else I have to add on them, we had a lot of conversation

[00:46:24] about Ranieri and what a wonderful story it's been

[00:46:26] we now know that he's

[00:46:28] not planning to stay on for another season

[00:46:30] there he's going to ride off into the sunset

[00:46:32] having been a hero which is fantastic for him

[00:46:34] I think

[00:46:36] we talked about the fact that this squad to me

[00:46:38] has lots of limitations, I still think this squad

[00:46:40] has lots of limitations, that's why it's such an amazing

[00:46:42] season for them Tuesday up

[00:46:44] but right now I would have

[00:46:46] probably put them close

[00:46:48] to my list of teams

[00:46:50] I'll be worried about next season unless they do something

[00:46:52] unexpected this summer. Any disagreement

[00:46:54] on that? No, full agreement

[00:47:00] I'm just thinking about their squad and how I would compare it

[00:47:02] I still think

[00:47:04] Verona should have gone down

[00:47:06] how is it that Verona is there

[00:47:08] and I look at that squad and I just think

[00:47:10] if I'm talking about the best squads

[00:47:12] I wouldn't put Sassuolo

[00:47:14] or Frozzinone down there so I don't know

[00:47:16] yeah, there are a few players

[00:47:18] that I do like at Calieri but yeah I agree with you

[00:47:20] I think it's been an impressive job

[00:47:24] Genoa to Bologna 0 was

[00:47:26] the next game on Friday

[00:47:28] very much

[00:47:30] end of season, we've done our job Bologna

[00:47:32] performance I would say, not a result to take

[00:47:34] too seriously in terms of

[00:47:36] just as a result Bologna

[00:47:38] I hate them for that though

[00:47:40] I hate them for that

[00:47:42] didn't help Rome as a cause did it

[00:47:44] yeah it really annoyed me that they

[00:47:46] just didn't show up for this, I was like oh

[00:47:48] screw you

[00:47:50] there's this part of me that was like

[00:47:52] oh come on Atalanta is just one

[00:47:54] if there's any team that should be on holiday right now

[00:47:56] it could be Atalanta who wanted to take this weekend off

[00:47:58] and they come in with a

[00:48:00] 3-0 performance that shows you what Gasparini does

[00:48:02] and Bologna they're like

[00:48:04] yeah we went on the bus, we secured top

[00:48:06] Champions League, like screw this

[00:48:08] you know, Calafiori snogging his girlfriend

[00:48:10] they're all just like riding into the sunset

[00:48:12] I'm like guys you could really help

[00:48:14] set it out right now

[00:48:16] so that really bothered me but

[00:48:18] whatever

[00:48:20] definitely that loss as you say

[00:48:22] has helped in combination

[00:48:24] Atalanta's win has dashed the dream of 6

[00:48:26] Champions League clubs for Italy

[00:48:28] nice for Genoa to end the season on a high note

[00:48:32] they've ended up in the end

[00:48:34] avoiding relegation pretty comfortably

[00:48:36] and I think for me the story

[00:48:38] we'll talk about Bologna a bit more in a second

[00:48:40] but just let's quickly do Genoa

[00:48:42] the story of their season, if I was going to highlight

[00:48:44] any one thing from their season that perhaps we haven't talked

[00:48:46] about enough it's probably Albert Goodman

[00:48:48] isn't it, he's had a fantastic season

[00:48:50] 14 goals he finishes with, he had another assist at the weekend

[00:48:52] I think he's a player

[00:48:54] who's going to be getting a lot of attention

[00:48:56] He's a player who's been in the club for

[00:48:58] 20 years, I stand Dix Center forward

[00:49:00] who's really been one of the

[00:49:02] standouts at

[00:49:04] if we want to use the word

[00:49:06] that probably is misapplied all the time in Italy

[00:49:08] but on Provinciale

[00:49:10] one of the teams that isn't one of the

[00:49:12] obvious competitive clubs at the very top

[00:49:14] of the division I think he's one of the real standouts this season

[00:49:16] and talking about earlier

[00:49:18] how goal scorers decide games

[00:49:20] has certainly decided lots for them

[00:49:22] was there anything else you guys wanted to add

[00:49:24] to the starter season, it's been impressive

[00:49:26] they haven't been anywhere near relegation because I think that was

[00:49:28] definitely their main target

[00:49:30] to avoid the starter season

[00:49:32] I think it's

[00:49:34] brilliant, I think Genoa

[00:49:36] needs a lot of

[00:49:38] deserve a lot of praise for what they've managed

[00:49:40] this season to finish within four points of

[00:49:42] last year's winners, I mean it shows you a lot about

[00:49:44] what Napoli have collapsed

[00:49:46] but it's also really impressive to finish where they did

[00:49:48] and you would never have expected it of a newly

[00:49:50] promoted team and more importantly

[00:49:52] I think what's been so great about Genoa

[00:49:54] is that they've never had an

[00:49:56] off game, every game they've gone into

[00:49:58] they've always showed the right mentality

[00:50:00] and I think that's what's really striking

[00:50:02] even in these last five matches of

[00:50:04] the season, even when everyone looks like they're on

[00:50:06] holiday, even when they have absolutely

[00:50:08] nothing to play for

[00:50:10] they show up in every match and always

[00:50:12] perform to their level and I think that's what's been

[00:50:14] the most impressive, I think Gilardino

[00:50:16] has been one of the most underrated coaches this

[00:50:18] season, they think he's done such an impressive job

[00:50:20] they sell Dragoosian and yet they're still

[00:50:22] defensively good at the back

[00:50:24] they have

[00:50:26] a good team and

[00:50:28] Frendop has been probably

[00:50:30] one of the more outstanding midfielders that they've

[00:50:32] got right now, but I

[00:50:34] just think this is, it's a team that is very

[00:50:36] well built, they've got a very

[00:50:38] good number of players, but this is

[00:50:40] what I like, a team that performs to expectations

[00:50:42] or just even a bit above

[00:50:44] so considering the tools that they've

[00:50:46] got, considering the players they have

[00:50:48] they've done a tremendous job and I think that they

[00:50:50] deserve a lot of praise. That's a great

[00:50:52] point about Dragoosian leaving in the middle of

[00:50:54] the season, he was someone who we would have really talked about as

[00:50:56] one of the most impressed performers earlier

[00:50:58] in the season so that's a great point that they didn't

[00:51:00] miss a beat and you're right, Gilardino who

[00:51:02] I really would not have guessed was going to mature

[00:51:04] into a great manager, I think when you see footballers

[00:51:06] sometimes you look at them and go

[00:51:08] that's someone who you expect to be a manager one day

[00:51:10] I don't know if I would have put that on Gilardino, I sometimes

[00:51:12] felt as a player he was

[00:51:14] someone who seemed to disappear into himself and be

[00:51:16] quite inward looking and I didn't

[00:51:18] necessarily see that being someone who'd become

[00:51:20] a manager but he's been fantastic.

[00:51:22] I wonder sometimes

[00:51:24] if players are not such great

[00:51:26] managers, sorry

[00:51:28] like players who aren't such great players if they

[00:51:30] can make great managers and there was this whole debate

[00:51:32] about it over the weekend and you look at like Mourinho

[00:51:34] and Gilardino is one

[00:51:36] exactly that you would never think so

[00:51:38] but you look at Xabi Alonso and think he's going to be the best

[00:51:40] ever manager and how much does that actually

[00:51:42] determine how good you're going to be as a manager?

[00:51:44] Gilardino was a great player because he was one of those players

[00:51:46] we never felt

[00:51:48] Yeah, I think he was a great player

[00:51:50] I do not agree but I always felt

[00:51:52] like he was one of those players who had something that he

[00:51:54] never reached that he should have done. He felt like he

[00:51:56] was on the verge of being a really brilliant

[00:51:58] player and instead he was a good

[00:52:00] player on some good teams, I'm not saying he wasn't

[00:52:02] but I always felt like there

[00:52:04] was something in his mentals

[00:52:06] that people like to say now, the mentals weren't

[00:52:08] quite as strong as they could have been.

[00:52:10] That's why I compare him to Simone Inzaghi because Inzaghi was

[00:52:12] also

[00:52:14] someone who owned the Scudetto and obviously he scored

[00:52:16] how many goals

[00:52:18] in the Champions League but it's

[00:52:20] it is that. I would

[00:52:22] never have expected him to, I agree with you

[00:52:24] I just would never have seen that and thought that he's going

[00:52:26] to be such a good manager but he is my

[00:52:28] ideal choice for Bologna. I wish that happened

[00:52:30] but he's staying with Genoa

[00:52:32] I'm going to have to bring up the goal scoring of

[00:52:34] Gilardino

[00:52:36] No, no, just the all time

[00:52:38] goal scorers in Serie A

[00:52:40] I'm just seeing where he is, Gilardino

[00:52:42] tenth, 188 goals

[00:52:44] same number as Alessandro Diapiero

[00:52:46] same number as Beppe

[00:52:48] Signori, five more than Gabriel Batistuta

[00:52:50] more than Quagliarella

[00:52:52] Do you see him though and think of

[00:52:54] him, do you see him and think of that as his

[00:52:56] past or do you see him as sort of thing?

[00:52:58] Del Piero is like

[00:53:00] this ever important

[00:53:02] guy in everyone's head, would you

[00:53:04] rate Gilardino in that same way considering

[00:53:06] his stats? Well no because very

[00:53:08] different type of player and I think

[00:53:10] actually it speaks to Del Piero's longevity

[00:53:12] in his goal record because he wasn't an out

[00:53:14] and out striker whereas Gilardino was much

[00:53:16] more that profile. What I think it shows

[00:53:18] is that Gilardino who moved around quite a

[00:53:20] lot was a very reliable source

[00:53:22] of goals between sort of 15 and 20

[00:53:24] almost every season and this was an era

[00:53:26] when it's very difficult to get to

[00:53:28] 20 goals in Serie A, it's been made a lot

[00:53:30] easier in recent years so I think

[00:53:32] to get 188 goals

[00:53:34] in Serie A is astonishing, he's in the

[00:53:36] top 10 so yeah that's his legacy

[00:53:38] but again you know that you can always

[00:53:40] argue numbers don't necessarily tell the whole

[00:53:42] story, I mean he played a lot of matches as well

[00:53:44] but then you could also say well

[00:53:46] he played a lot of matches because people

[00:53:48] rated him and he kept himself injury

[00:53:50] free and so yeah

[00:53:52] I think he wouldn't have played for the

[00:53:54] clubs he did, he wouldn't have won what he did had he not been

[00:53:56] a good player but I take the point you

[00:53:58] look at goal scorers as he was and you don't

[00:54:00] necessarily think they're going to be the

[00:54:02] sharpest tactical minds or the most curious

[00:54:04] for sure. Yeah my point does go a bit beyond that, I don't want to get too caught in this because we have got a lot to get to but I just want to sort of come from where I'm coming from which is that I think part of how my framing of

[00:54:14] Giallardino has always been is yes he scored all these goals

[00:54:16] but when he was at his biggest club, when he was

[00:54:18] at Milan that was his most disappointing

[00:54:20] period, when he went to the place where the pressure was

[00:54:22] highest he seemed to disappear but he

[00:54:24] did have a 12 goal season, a 7 goal season, he had

[00:54:28] two long runs in the Champions League where

[00:54:30] I think it was total Champions League

[00:54:32] goal scoring record at Milan I have in front of me, it's four goals in 28 games, that's not a good scoring record for someone whose main job is to score goals so I think that was the reason that I have perhaps always viewed him as someone who certainly not knocking his body of work in his career but never seemed to be someone in my mind who dealt with those very highest pressure situations as well as I would want him to as a player and so seeing him as a manager was not necessarily a step that I expected but again I'm saying this in the context of what I said earlier

[00:55:00] I think he's doing a great job. Bologna, let's talk about Bologna because we do need to

[00:55:08] Thiago Mata we basically know now is gone, he's going to Juventus

[00:55:12] we've already had the question that follows that inevitably being asked to several of the team's most important players, Joshua Zaxe I saw was interviewed the other day and said look basically my focus right now is I want to go on holiday with my family and take a break and enjoy this moment which he's entitled to

[00:55:28] but hard not to wonder where this team goes now that there is no more Thiago Mata and Patrick, do you think, are you optimistic or pessimistic about where this goes next?

[00:55:43] I think it will depend on how they frame their expectations because I think I would take the example of Napoli, he had a very charismatic head coach who overachieved who led you to the Scudetto after 33 years away

[00:55:56] Bologna have now qualified for the Champions League after more than six decades almost

[00:56:02] so I think it depends if you see your head coach go which he's already announced he'll be leaving, if you then lose a player or two which Napoli did with Kim Lestri forget

[00:56:12] then I think you need to reframe your expectations, the problem is you won't because how are you going to douse supporters enthusiasm?

[00:56:21] It's just impossible to do, you just expect to get continually better, you hope the club will show ambition

[00:56:27] so it will all come down to the appointment whether they hire the right coach, whether they're then able to reinvest and whether the ownership is willing to reinvest any money they make on any big player sales

[00:56:37] but I think you need to consider where you are in the grand scheme of Italian football and say this season was an exceptional one

[00:56:44] and by that I mean extraordinary as in out of the ordinary quite literally so you therefore need to go back to what your uniform standard would look like and say okay we want to finish in the top 10, if we can qualify for Europe again great

[00:56:57] but we're going to enjoy our Champions League run and we're going to try and continue to identify, bring in young talent and develop players and hopefully sell them on a profit

[00:57:06] I don't think Bologna should have delusions of grandeur which I do think is something that afflictive Napoli supporters this season

[00:57:12] Mina let's keep moving and get onto Juventus next, they beat Monza 2-0 this weekend, they end strongly under Monteiro with the 3-0 draw against Bologna and now there's 2-0 win

[00:57:25] but of course Monteiro is just there for a minute, it's about to be the Chiarga-Motta show in Turin

[00:57:31] overall verdict on this season and finishing well not certain to finish in third, Atalanta if they do beat Fiorentina that postponed game will move above them but Juventus will be either third or fourth

[00:57:43] we know they also won the Coppa Italia before Max Allegri took his shirt off and then took his leave or was encouraged to take his leave perhaps

[00:57:54] I was listening back to our pod from last week and I started laughing so much because I missed the part where Patrick started singing you can leave your hat on

[00:58:04] it really made me laugh, it would have been really nice if we played some striptease song to him leaving

[00:58:10] it's very difficult to really honestly accurately judge Juventus' season because obviously for the first half of it they were absolutely brilliant

[00:58:18] it's also fair to say that as a Juventus fan I cannot honestly say that this is a team that I followed all my life and if I was to judge it by previous teams

[00:58:28] this is the worst team I've ever seen don the black and white shirt so it's a very mediocre group of players

[00:58:34] so what they managed in the first half for me was well above all my expectations

[00:58:39] what they managed in the second half is well below any of my expectations so it's a real jarring sort of season in which I've seen the very best and I've seen the very worst

[00:58:51] I don't know what to think going forward I thought that maybe we had started to find our feet from a management point of view but I do wonder how much the ideas seem to be frazzled

[00:59:03] and I have some concerns it is I think Monchi has proved that if you're a very good sporting director in one particular club which is about developing talent and about scouting great potential

[00:59:16] you can be a success in that but then when you have to scout actual players to win the very big matches and to be leaders it's an entirely different ballgame right

[00:59:26] which is why at the time it was so great to have Marotta and Paratici because I think they set the tone for that and what Inter's doing right now is doing that too

[00:59:35] I'd like to hope Juventus' future looks good let's see what Thiago Monta can do we've already heard rumours about him not liking Federico Chiesa and not wanting to centre his project around it

[00:59:45] and there's been all these question marks yeah I think this is the one guy that Patrick and I quite agree on

[00:59:53] we do have a lot of doubts when it comes to Chiesa I think we both agree I mean I'm speaking for you but I think we both agree that he has raw talent

[01:00:01] it's about the focus and about the ability to develop certain aspects of his game that I haven't seen him develop which worries me

[01:00:09] so let's see what Thiago Monta will think and do but he will need to be a very very mentally strong coach to cope with everything that's going on at Juventus

[01:00:22] so I don't have high hopes of them doing much I think it's another transitional year but let's just see what happens in Champions League football

[01:00:30] because this will be where Monta really needs to show that he has what it takes to make it in Europe because Serie A does not suffice for Juventus

[01:00:40] Monza finished the season with I think three points from their last nine games was a pretty spectacular end to the season in terms of going off the boil

[01:00:49] I have realised that we're running really long on this idea I had of let's try and talk about every team so unless there's anything you particularly want to shout out about them Patrick

[01:00:56] I'll just say the most interesting story I think at the start of the summer for them is the situation with their goalkeeper Didico Gorgio who's had a really good season

[01:01:03] a lot of people very disappointed he's not going to be part of the Italy squad but it sounds like he might be off to their opponents this weekend

[01:01:11] Juventus very shortly as well is there anything else you wanted to shout on them quickly or is that...

[01:01:16] Just that their coach is leaving, Raffaele Palladino who did an excellent job who came in got them their first ever win last season against Juventus his former club

[01:01:24] and he's gone full circle he made no attempt to hide the fact that he's going to be leaving the club he said I'll tell you my decision at the start of June

[01:01:30] but he's heavily expected to leave the club and he's one of the names being linked with Bologna so I think he's done a very good job promoted from the Primavera up to the first team

[01:01:39] and basically got them 50 points in each of their two seasons there or thereabouts

[01:01:44] Yeah I think that's a very good point actually and worth saying before as I was breezing over them they were able to lose all those games the end of season

[01:01:51] because they'd achieved again like Genoa they'd achieved what they had set out to achieve which was avoiding relegation they were never at risk of it really

[01:01:56] because of how strongly they started the season so an excellent job at Palladino

[01:02:01] Next game up is Milan 3 Salernitana 3 fun game in a season which did not have a lot of those for Salernitana

[01:02:09] Amina I know you wanted to talk about Piolli so I'm going to throw to you again

[01:02:12] I just wanted to say Gagliani offered the job to Allegri but anyway the Monza job so that would be hilarious

[01:02:18] No it was just something that obviously I'm thrilled for Piolli that he got the exit that he deserves

[01:02:25] I just want it was going to be a rant about what Saki said when it came to Piolli

[01:02:30] and the fact that he had hoped for somebody better to be linked to the club than Fonseca

[01:02:35] and then he mentioned that you know he would have preferred to see someone else

[01:02:39] and I guess my rant is that I don't know why Fonseca is regarded as being so tragically awful

[01:02:46] not that I would understand that you would want a better coach but then why did you get rid of Piolli

[01:02:51] I think what I took issue with is that Saki weights Dzerbe as being this really brilliant coach

[01:02:56] and then you look at the over the course of what they've managed

[01:02:58] and I'm like the guy finished last in a Champions League group that had Sheriff

[01:03:03] and he lost to Sheriff for goodness sakes like and then he got smashed in the Europa League

[01:03:08] I don't see how Fonseca is that much worse than him if anything I think that he's done a terrific job

[01:03:13] actually for Shakhtar and for Roma in Europe so I don't look at him and think you know

[01:03:18] he reached the semi-finals of the Europa League and I think this is a guy that everyone's watching at Lille

[01:03:24] who's got seven players of under 25 that start the team

[01:03:29] he's won 21 of 31 games so it's magnificent how he's taken this team that's from 13th position

[01:03:35] I think to fifth and then fourth now

[01:03:38] so I just want to say like Fonseca might not be everyone's dream

[01:03:42] but if you ask me between him and Dzerbe hands down it's Fonseca

[01:03:46] There's not just purely saying goodbye to Milan of course

[01:03:51] this was the last game for Olivier Giroud, Simon Kier were saying a few big names

[01:03:56] say farewell I for one of course I'm going to miss Giroud everyone knows how enthusiastic I am about him

[01:04:01] and bon voyage to Olivier wherever he's moving on to next

[01:04:06] I do think the situation for Milan is still a bit complicated around that

[01:04:12] because Luka Jovovich and Okifor had their moments this season but neither of them really said

[01:04:16] hey I'm your number nine who's going to do this confidently

[01:04:20] so that is a big question for them next season even though there were other positive this season

[01:04:25] including of course Christian Pulisic having a fantastic season

[01:04:29] Leroux-Bernoftis-Chic I think integrating well

[01:04:32] there are certainly still questions and I know Patrick you've been not always on board the Raphael Léa train

[01:04:38] it's been a journey of ups and downs

[01:04:41] I thought he took his goal brilliantly against Salena Isana

[01:04:44] I thought it was a fabulous finish when he tapped it into an empty net after the goalkeeper dropped it at his feet

[01:04:49] yeah no what I did enjoy was him running to Piolli and hugging him

[01:04:54] and I think we were made aware of the fact that Leroux also had a tribute to Giroud as well

[01:05:01] and he made the point that actually Piolli was there a lot longer than Giroud

[01:05:05] I think we've seen that these are two players who have almost signposted certain stages of Léa's development

[01:05:12] he said he was however old he was when Piolli first took charge

[01:05:17] I mean he's 1999 isn't he so he's what 25 now

[01:05:22] so Piolli has been in nearly five years so I guess he's about 20 when Piolli first came in charge

[01:05:28] and he said you allowed me to become an elite player

[01:05:31] I think that's Piolli's great legacy aside from the Scudetto win

[01:05:35] it's allowing players like Théo Hernandez and Raphael Léa to develop into world-class players

[01:05:40] Salerni Tana have been relegated for a while

[01:05:45] not a happy season for them

[01:05:48] went through four managers over the course of the season

[01:05:51] it feels like forever ago the people in Zaghi were there

[01:05:53] he actually lasted until game number 20

[01:05:55] and then he was relegated to the national team

[01:05:58] and then forever ago the people in Zaghi were there

[01:06:00] he actually lasted until game number 24

[01:06:02] but also Paolo Soso who started the season before him

[01:06:05] Fabio Leverani, Colin Tornow finished it

[01:06:08] and so he was very proud to have ended showing some dignity there at the end

[01:06:12] but look I think again too early to say what next season looks like for them

[01:06:19] they're going to go down

[01:06:20] they're going to have a chance to reset

[01:06:23] Colin Tornow was saying he believes they have a hard core

[01:06:26] and they can bounce back up quickly

[01:06:28] we shall see

[01:06:30] no chance

[01:06:31] let's move on to Napoli against Lecce

[01:06:34] the club is up for sale Salerni Tana

[01:06:37] Yer Rolino is trying to shift it

[01:06:39] so I don't think it's

[01:06:41] I don't see them coming back up to Serie A anytime soon

[01:06:43] call me a pessimist

[01:06:45] I agree

[01:06:47] well said

[01:06:49] Napoli against Lecce

[01:06:51] 0-0

[01:06:52] the reigning champions from last season

[01:06:55] finished 10th

[01:06:57] which means that even if Fiorentina do win the Europa Conference League

[01:07:00] and add a ninth European spot to the Italian roster

[01:07:03] there will be no European football for Napoli last season

[01:07:06] which we were talking about before the show

[01:07:08] might just be a blessing Patrick

[01:07:10] because Antonio Conte looks likely to take over as an Napoli job

[01:07:13] and I think you and I were in agreement that

[01:07:16] Antonio Conte would have less than zero interest in Europa Conference League football

[01:07:20] 2012 won the league with Juventus playing one game a week

[01:07:24] 2017 won the league with Chelsea playing one game a week

[01:07:27] 2025 won the Scudetto with Napoli playing one game a week

[01:07:31] I think I would be amazed for all that I think Conte is a brilliant tactician

[01:07:35] Napoli are in such disarray and they're going to have such a huge clear out of players

[01:07:39] I'd be amazed if he did much more beyond qualifying in for the Champions League

[01:07:43] but I do think it's the lesser of two evils

[01:07:46] it does end Napoli's run of 15 consecutive years of qualifying for Europe

[01:07:50] but it also means that they will be able to focus on

[01:07:54] well if they can have an extra match actually

[01:07:56] because the top eight teams are seeded for the Coppa Italia

[01:07:59] so they won't even get a bye in that match

[01:08:01] I was seeing earlier on that they actually have to come in

[01:08:03] in the second round of the Coppa Italia

[01:08:05] so they'll be playing a week before the start of the Serie A season

[01:08:08] against some preposterous sides, I can't remember who they are

[01:08:11] no disrespect to those two teams

[01:08:13] so yeah it's the biggest fall from grace I think you could see

[01:08:18] and good riddance to what's been a terrible season

[01:08:21] the fans had banners saying them

[01:08:23] we wish you a summer like our season was spent in a sea of excrement

[01:08:28] which was nice

[01:08:29] and yeah now the captain wants to jump ship

[01:08:32] so la nave affonde, the ship is sinking

[01:08:36] I mean his agent came out and said that basically he was pushed

[01:08:39] so I don't know what to believe when it comes to the captain

[01:08:42] believe the player, don't believe the owner

[01:08:45] yeah I agree with you

[01:08:47] so I agree with you

[01:08:49] so I do think he's been sort of pushed out

[01:08:52] but I am absolutely dying to see the cocktail of Di Laurentiis and Antonio Conte

[01:08:59] I mean if there's anything that makes me like desperate towards Serie A next season

[01:09:03] it is absolutely now putting

[01:09:06] very snap judgement and very quick judgement

[01:09:09] could you see Conte coming in and just winning the league right away?

[01:09:12] imagine that

[01:09:15] who are they going to replace?

[01:09:17] well it depends on who they, well I mean they're linked to Lukaku right?

[01:09:19] like the toy that Conte takes everywhere he goes

[01:09:23] which is funny

[01:09:24] his comfort blanket

[01:09:26] yes his comfort blanket

[01:09:28] I mean you're losing awesome and right it's a big deal

[01:09:30] so I honestly don't know

[01:09:33] and I would like to say I feel like Cravat Scalia is not his player

[01:09:36] so I'm desperate to watch how he's going to do with Cravat Scalia

[01:09:40] but if there's any team in the world that I think that Conte should really need

[01:09:45] like really needs to go to and focus his energy on

[01:09:47] it is now Pogliari

[01:09:49] because it's their mentality that sucks the most

[01:09:51] so I really think that it's a good match

[01:09:54] and they don't really care right now about winning the Champions League

[01:09:57] so I don't know

[01:09:59] the thing is even now I just instinctively believe in Antonio Conte

[01:10:05] I always like Antonio Conte's methods

[01:10:07] I don't always find them exciting

[01:10:09] but listen if you can make Graziano Pellea and Adair look like a partnership up front

[01:10:15] that could just have been good enough to win a Euros with

[01:10:17] they won

[01:10:18] but made you feel for a minute that they could be good enough to win a Euros with

[01:10:21] then I think you can probably do anything

[01:10:23] how long can you believe in Antonio Conte?

[01:10:25] that's the question right?

[01:10:27] how long can you believe in Antonio Conte and how much do you believe in him in Europe?

[01:10:30] because when it comes to, I agree with you

[01:10:32] he's not in Europe, easy

[01:10:33] exactly so as soon as you think one season Napoli

[01:10:35] you think yeah definitely he's going to be amazing

[01:10:37] but then you start thinking two, three seasons

[01:10:39] and then you start being like oh I don't know

[01:10:41] and also what's going to happen?

[01:10:43] that is where I have question marks

[01:10:45] for one season though, for this first one in the year

[01:10:47] you're confident on what he's going to achieve

[01:10:51] Lecce, my personal highlight with Lecce goes all the way back to December

[01:10:59] when Vladimir Falconer who remains one of my favourite name players in the whole division

[01:11:03] because he just always sounds like he's one villain

[01:11:05] the goalkeeper for Lecce goes up and wins a penalty in the 95th minute of their draw with Bologna in December

[01:11:13] that's going to be my abiding memory I think of Lecce's season

[01:11:17] but again another team that we knew was very likely to be in that relegation fight

[01:11:24] they managed to not be in it in the last day of the season

[01:11:26] I think that's pretty much mission accomplished

[01:11:28] the next game Atalanta-Torino-Atalanta ruined it for Italy by just going ahead and thumping Torino

[01:11:36] claiming fourth place and giving themselves a chance at third place

[01:11:39] making sure that Roma definitely will not be going to the Champions League next season

[01:11:43] I don't know how much more there is to add at this point about how absolutely extraordinary this team has been

[01:11:50] I just want to reiterate again

[01:11:52] if you're not getting it, you should be getting it

[01:11:56] if you're not getting it, you should be getting it

[01:11:58] after how they absolutely handled Bayer Leverkusen, this juggernaut of a team

[01:12:02] then the fact that they did that having beaten Marseille the round before

[01:12:06] and Liverpool the round before all 3-0 in at least one of the legs

[01:12:10] the fact that they're doing this while playing just constantly twice a week forever

[01:12:14] look at their calendar if you're having any doubts at all about how extraordinary this is

[01:12:18] they have not had a break in forever

[01:12:20] and as Mina said, despite not having had a break in forever

[01:12:23] still showed up this weekend and thumped Torino

[01:12:26] didn't take even one step backwards in that approach

[01:12:29] extraordinary stuff from Gianpiero Gasparini

[01:12:32] I can't wait to see this team go in the Champions League again next season

[01:12:37] I've seen some headlines over the weekend about how Gasparini says

[01:12:41] I don't want to see any players this summer

[01:12:43] I actually don't believe them

[01:12:45] I don't think Gasparini is throwing his weight around

[01:12:47] I think he has a great relationship with the owners

[01:12:49] and they will collaborate and work out a way forward that works for everyone

[01:12:53] and above all he's staying, which is the big news

[01:12:56] anything else you guys want to add on the Atalanta?

[01:12:58] yeah, I think on Thursday, wasn't it, after the Europa League win

[01:13:02] his future was still shrouded in uncertainty

[01:13:05] there were the strong Napoli links before the contest speculation sort of advanced

[01:13:11] and Gasparini came out after the 3-0 win over Torino

[01:13:15] and said I'm definitely staying

[01:13:17] and Ivan Juric, who's one of his acolytes, said that Gasparini is the best coach in Europe

[01:13:21] I just want to say that this is a win for all wives

[01:13:26] he didn't lose the mistress

[01:13:28] he chose the wife

[01:13:29] if you don't know this, he came out after the game and said

[01:13:32] the mistress is Napoli and my wife is Atalanta

[01:13:35] it would have been interesting to see him in Naples

[01:13:38] but less fun than the Antonio Conte are really the stories

[01:13:42] Mina, quick answer

[01:13:43] Ivan Juric at Torino, are we still buying that

[01:13:46] or are we starting to think that's run its course

[01:13:49] he's leaving

[01:13:51] he is leaving

[01:13:53] I'll read it, I'll say that

[01:13:55] Mina, Ivan Juric at Torino

[01:13:58] is this

[01:14:00] how are we going to look back on this chapter

[01:14:02] positive, negative, just somewhere in the middle

[01:14:04] because this was another middling season I guess

[01:14:07] although they could yet be in Europe depending on Fiorentina's result in the Europa Conference League

[01:14:10] I think it's a positive season

[01:14:12] he's given us some already choosing who's part of the squad

[01:14:15] he's used him wisely in Torino

[01:14:18] we haven't seen him go down from his level of empathy

[01:14:20] he's developed further

[01:14:21] I think Buongiorno is another great take for Ivan Juric

[01:14:25] and his development at Torino

[01:14:27] it's a side that doesn't have a lot of talent

[01:14:29] you're looking at Vlazic up front

[01:14:32] and Zapata who have tried to score the goals

[01:14:34] it's a team that's defended really well

[01:14:36] that has used their tools as much as possible

[01:14:40] and I like Ivan Juric in the sense he will play an attacking game

[01:14:43] if he has the right attackers

[01:14:44] and he'll play a defensive game if he has defenders

[01:14:46] so he's always adapted to all the players that he's got

[01:14:49] I think that they've worked really hard

[01:14:51] you've never wanted to face Torino this season

[01:14:53] you knew that they were going to be really tough to face

[01:14:55] and I think it's honestly

[01:14:57] I think chapeau to what he's managed to accomplish this season

[01:15:00] especially if he gets them into the conference league

[01:15:02] of course that is of course dependent on whether or not Fiorentina win

[01:15:05] but it's got to be second time lucky, right?

[01:15:08] come on Fiorentina

[01:15:09] we'll see

[01:15:10] come on Fiorentina

[01:15:13] yeah, I'm really looking forward to that final

[01:15:15] but who knows?

[01:15:17] I keep coming back to the fact that it's in Athens

[01:15:19] Lazio won

[01:15:20] Sassuolo won

[01:15:21] I think we all feel pretty positive about the start of Iga Tudor's time at Lazio

[01:15:25] he started positively

[01:15:26] we've seen some real signs of improvement

[01:15:28] Sassuolo

[01:15:30] it's hard to shake the feeling that this was just a real lost season for them

[01:15:34] they should be better than this I think

[01:15:35] of all the teams that are going down

[01:15:36] they're the one who I think I expected more of

[01:15:38] I think at the same time

[01:15:40] that I feel reasonably confident for the future with

[01:15:42] because the Sqweensie family aren't going anywhere

[01:15:44] I think they have a set up that allows them to come back and move forward

[01:15:49] but short term

[01:15:51] it's the end of the era in which

[01:15:53] probably in which they've been carried by Dominica Berardi

[01:15:55] and that's something they're going to have to move on from

[01:15:58] I think there could be short term pain

[01:16:00] but I think long term

[01:16:02] I think Sassuolo are still in safe hands

[01:16:07] and the last game we haven't got to yet

[01:16:11] is Verona 2-2

[01:16:14] let's do Verona first

[01:16:16] I think every one of us is hugely impressed with the job this season

[01:16:21] that Marco Berardi has done

[01:16:23] I know in January we were all riffing on what an absolute mess it was

[01:16:27] and the fact you had half the team look at each other and going who are you

[01:16:31] because it all arrived in January

[01:16:33] so the fact again that they got to the end of the season

[01:16:35] and didn't have to worry about things in the last game of the campaign

[01:16:39] could have fun going against Inter

[01:16:41] and not worrying about the result

[01:16:43] playing an attacking game

[01:16:45] is clearly a huge result

[01:16:47] where does it go next Patrick?

[01:16:49] Where's the next step for the Verona story?

[01:16:52] I'm concerned that they're going to have another fire sale in the summer

[01:16:56] because all the players that they replaced in January

[01:16:58] most of them have done pretty well

[01:17:00] especially with Tijani Nozlin who they brought in

[01:17:02] who reminds me a lot of the impact that Cyril and Gonge had

[01:17:05] they seemed to scout very well in the Netherlands

[01:17:07] they brought in Nozlin, scored a lot of goals, scored again against Inter

[01:17:10] I think he's got five goals since January

[01:17:13] so very impressed with him

[01:17:15] so I think the credit goes to obviously the players

[01:17:18] Marco Berardi but also Sean Soliano

[01:17:20] who was the returning sporting director

[01:17:22] who'd done very well there in the past

[01:17:24] he's now being linked with jobs elsewhere

[01:17:26] but I like Diego Coppola as well

[01:17:28] the academy central defender

[01:17:30] it was him and Terraciano who really burst onto the scene last season

[01:17:33] and Terraciano was sold to Milan in January

[01:17:37] and Coppola has been pretty sturdy at the back

[01:17:40] I like him as part of their defensive unit

[01:17:43] so it remains to be seen

[01:17:45] there's always uncertainty where Maurizio Setti, the president, is involved

[01:17:48] there's a lot of financial scrutiny surrounding Verona

[01:17:51] but nice to see one of the historic Serie A clubs

[01:17:54] a title winner lest we forget

[01:17:56] in 85 back still in Serie A

[01:17:59] and then there's Inter

[01:18:03] we got saved the best till last

[01:18:05] runaway champions I think

[01:18:07] we've said quite a lot about them

[01:18:09] but perhaps still bears saying one more time

[01:18:11] just an extraordinary season, 94 points

[01:18:14] in the end was not enough to put them in that record setting category

[01:18:17] but it's one of the best all-time Serie A seasons

[01:18:19] unfortunately I haven't got it in front of me

[01:18:21] but Opta adjusted all previous seasons to three points for a win

[01:18:24] and this is still certainly

[01:18:26] I think it was in the top five of all-time seasons in Serie A

[01:18:29] so it's a hugely impressive campaign

[01:18:31] especially when you think that's despite

[01:18:33] definitely a few dropped games here at the end of the season

[01:18:36] which you think they would have won if they needed to

[01:18:38] rather than taking their foot off the pedal

[01:18:41] of course if this had been a must-win game

[01:18:43] you probably wouldn't have seen Arnautovic starting up front

[01:18:46] although he scored two goals

[01:18:48] so there you go, saved his best till last as well

[01:18:51] Patrick I'll come back to you again

[01:18:53] anything else you'd like to add on this extraordinary season by Simone and Zaghi and Inter?

[01:18:57] No, I just think wonderful

[01:18:59] and it basically vindicates all of the decisions they made

[01:19:02] you know they made no bones about the fact that

[01:19:05] they wanted to target the Scudetto above all as their priority

[01:19:08] to get to number 20, the second star, do it ahead of Milan

[01:19:12] and there's a great interview actually

[01:19:14] that went out on the documentary about Inter this week

[01:19:17] Inter Galactic, shout out to that

[01:19:20] where Beppe Marotta basically said to Serie A radio at the start of the season

[01:19:24] and he said, you went to the Champions League final last season

[01:19:27] what if you were to win this Scudetto this season?

[01:19:30] He said, I'd happily shake on that

[01:19:32] if it's alternating between Champions League final one year

[01:19:35] and league title the next, I'd happily take that

[01:19:38] so brilliant, in an ideal world they would have gone to another Champions League final

[01:19:42] but I think they'd much rather win their 20th league title

[01:19:45] in the derby as they did

[01:19:47] and by far and away the standout team

[01:19:49] and it will be concerning for the other 19 teams in Serie A

[01:19:52] despite all the uncertainties surrounding the ownership and the presidency

[01:19:55] in terms of the senior management and the playing staff

[01:19:58] they're just unbelievable

[01:20:00] and the head coach who's out of this world as well

[01:20:03] I was at my cousin's wedding this weekend

[01:20:06] and, well I always say my cousin

[01:20:08] it's actually my cousin's son

[01:20:10] but there's a age gap between the two sides of the family

[01:20:13] so my cousin is a bit older than me

[01:20:15] my cousin's son is a bit younger than me

[01:20:17] so they're just both my cousins to me

[01:20:19] and the older of the two then

[01:20:22] so the one who's actually my cousin

[01:20:24] they're both huge Inter fans

[01:20:26] they went to the final last season of the Champions League

[01:20:29] and the older cousin for the best part of two years

[01:20:33] has been telling me all the reasons he doesn't like Simone and Zaghi

[01:20:36] just constantly don't like him

[01:20:38] this weekend he finally said

[01:20:40] you know what I think he might have been right about Simone and Zaghi

[01:20:43] so it took a while but even the sceptics have come around

[01:20:46] I think we're about to wrap up for the season

[01:20:49] so why don't you see us out with your thoughts on Inter

[01:20:53] and then you can take us to the end of the season in San Diego Chronicles

[01:20:57] I know, it really is

[01:20:59] it's a little bit sad

[01:21:01] honestly I guess my only thought is that

[01:21:05] I'm very happy for him

[01:21:07] considering everything that was written about Simone and Zaghi

[01:21:10] so there's still people who

[01:21:14] I love that Moratti came out and said that

[01:21:16] there's various moments that I would have sacked in Zaghi too

[01:21:19] so it should be a lesson to everyone

[01:21:22] to sort of you know remain patient

[01:21:24] if there is a project, if you like the coach

[01:21:26] and this is what I think great managements do

[01:21:28] honestly you can change your coaches

[01:21:30] you can change your players

[01:21:31] you can even change your ownership

[01:21:32] but if you have a great management team

[01:21:34] I really think you'll succeed

[01:21:35] and that's the only thing that gives me hope for Bologna as well right

[01:21:38] because I do like their management

[01:21:40] so long-lived managements

[01:21:43] but I do want to thank you all

[01:21:45] producers Simon, Nikki, Patrick

[01:21:49] for this exhaustive season

[01:21:51] we will come back to you

[01:21:53] to tell you a little bit more about

[01:21:55] how Fiorentina managed to fare

[01:21:57] in the Champions League Conference

[01:21:59] Champions League Conference League final

[01:22:01] we really hope that

[01:22:03] having reached the second one in a row

[01:22:05] that they'll actually win this one

[01:22:07] it's going to be difficult

[01:22:08] it's Olympiakos, it is in Greece

[01:22:10] so we don't know if it's going to be

[01:22:12] as easy as I think a lot of people think it will be

[01:22:16] but either way we will be back

[01:22:18] to let you know about that

[01:22:20] in the meantime do follow us on our socials

[01:22:23] give us a thumbs up, leave us a review

[01:22:25] it just helps us to grow even more

[01:22:28] thank you for listening to us throughout this season

[01:22:31] and over and out

[01:22:52] Sports Social Podcast Network

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